Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): And then you will post it on the indicator page, the link to it at the end.
simona: Um, Okay. So soon. Yeah, go ahead. You have five minutes
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): uh workshop
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): uh, but to offer to the colleagues and update about the um ongoing activities.
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): Uh, as you have seen, we have a very rich agenda. Therefore it is absolutely critical to keep uh the schedule,
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): and our uh session will certainly take care of that
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): in case you don't have privileges to upload yourself.
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): And uh, with this I think this introduction is completed.
simona: Uh, thank you, Sylvia. Um. So, sean, please to share your slides, and you have fifteen minutes. I will time, you guys, and I will. So you even meet sentence if we needed. Sorry we have to keep the time. I was asked to do that. I don't like it, but I have to. So shaun go ahead.
Shawn Shin: Thank you.
Shawn Shin: Alright. Could I just confirm that everyone can see this
Shawn Shin: here.
simona: I can see your slides. I don't hear you that. Well, but maybe
simona: the rest of the group does. But I do see your side.
Shawn Shin: Okay, So all right. Hello, everyone. So my name is Shawn Shen, and I'm an associate research scientist here at income.
Shawn Shin: So
Shawn Shin: um, I gave you a similar talk back in March when you had our first L. A. Pd. Virtual workshop. So this is
Shawn Shin: effectively going to be a continuation of that, and maybe a brief of re iteration.
Shawn Shin: This is the overview of the large area of ecosystem, but at the center,
Shawn Shin: actually not as the
Shawn Shin: So that line of this talk that's gonna be as follows: Just a great introduction,
Shawn Shin: and, you know,
Shawn Shin: summarize the Lapd performance,
Shawn Shin: and we're going to be sharing something special today. So we've been working on a new photo sensor that is called the high Rate
Shawn Shin: the Hrp.
Shawn Shin: And we'll be sharing some preliminary results.
Shawn Shin: And lastly, i'm gonna summarize with some of the exciting ongoing efforts that are being carried out here, as well as a summary of a list of talks that might be of interested in
Shawn Shin: nothing. Much has really changed since March. We're still here in Massachusetts and
Shawn Shin: Um,
Shawn Shin: the detective business unit
Shawn Shin: uh to our present here today in today's workshop
Shawn Shin: are responsible for the file production of Dial, A. Pd. In the building that you see
Shawn Shin: in the red facility.
Shawn Shin: So this is just a overall technical specifications sheet of.
Shawn Shin: They're starting out from the very top.
Shawn Shin: The only ppd is a twenty by twenty centimeters square,
Shawn Shin: and in a nice glass or ceramic body it houses a chevron pair of functionalized, which you can see on the top right corner.
Shawn Shin: So we take a glass up straight.
So with hollow course,
Shawn Shin: and they um, and they're put in an ald machine, where we acquired a
resist the player, and then the the player,
Shawn Shin: and the
Shawn Shin: so. The Lapd has a effective area of three hundred and seventy-three centimeters squared, and accounting for its total lateral dimensions. This equates to approximately seventy four percent active area ratio.
Shawn Shin: The devices demonstrated hiking the about to ten to the seven that has a very uniform, and it needs
Shawn Shin: so to capture that if you'd be sensitive,
Shawn Shin: and with the help of our collaborator, I
Shawn Shin: he was able to produce a very impressive results of Ste. Timing resolution on the over fifty picoseconds, and down to as low as eightyicoseconds for mostly,
Shawn Shin: and As for the position, resolution, because this is
Shawn Shin: uh what you see on the right is they capacitively a couple of device.
Shawn Shin: The resolution largely depends on the readout board and the readout technique, but it is capable of sub millimeter position, resolution,
Shawn Shin: and no further tests have been done at this point in a higher magnetic field, but it has shown tolerance
Shawn Shin: up to one point four Tesla, which will be gone into detail, and Jim chief of
Shawn Shin: and this is the exploded view of the L. A. Pd. Um. So we have a few. Select a window on the pack which
Shawn Shin: gets us access to the
Shawn Shin: Uh range
Shawn Shin: and below, and we have two
Shawn Shin: um that are independently fired,
Shawn Shin: and the charge that is
Shawn Shin: the Cp. Charge that's been deposited onto the annual, which is then capacitively set up
an external read up word,
Shawn Shin: and,
Shawn Shin: as you can see, this is the lateral dimension on the body right?
Shawn Shin: And
Shawn Shin: it was L. A. Ppd. Has an active area of seventy, three point seven, two percent specifically,
Shawn Shin: and a talk will be given later by Alexi Lyashenko on our efforts to increase this active area patient,
Shawn Shin: and this is essentially what you would get for the So on the left the like Pd. Is housed in a all through frame.
Shawn Shin: Just integrate your connections to
Shawn Shin: the full capital and the half and bottom basis of each, and seeking,
Shawn Shin: and on the right hand side is a
Shawn Shin: eight by eight.
Shawn Shin: I read up board that will be attached to the back of the
Shawn Shin: so three
Shawn Shin: uh iteration of the results of the like. Pd. So
Shawn Shin: this is the photograph of two weeks. The four diagrams you see on the left hand side is the Q. We scan across four different led way Phones
Shawn Shin: range from three hundred and sixty-five to five hundred and sixty-five nanometers
Shawn Shin: uniformity.
Shawn Shin: And this is just to show that the phot account. There is. You be sensitive,
Shawn Shin: and on the right hand side is the Qv. Vers. Wait one.
Shawn Shin: This is the This is the show that with the switch from Boris, so it's just a few, so it's your entry will know
Shawn Shin: they cut off
it wrong
Shawn Shin: the previous three hundred, and now, roughly, one hundred and sixty nanometers,
Shawn Shin: and this is,
Shawn Shin: you are some results from a more recently fabricated tile.
Shawn Shin: They were sorry. From the left we have the Gain versus Protocol, the voltage across different Ncp. By its hostages.
You can see
Shawn Shin: the the gain as well over ten to the six, and
Shawn Shin: up to ten to the seven.
Shawn Shin: The corresponding dark rates are shown in the middle diagram, where the range is perfectly between one hundred to ten, to four kilometers per centimeter square,
Shawn Shin: and on the right-hand side is the transit time spread as a function of the photoc of voltage.
Shawn Shin: So,
Shawn Shin: as you can see, the the time of time spread increases what not increased. It improves tremendously as a function of photoc of voltage.
Shawn Shin: Um up to approximately one hundred, both, and beyond that you get.
Shawn Shin: And then, if you would,
Shawn Shin: so an example, configuration is showing below. So with a
Shawn Shin: of about eight, seventy, five, and
Shawn Shin: uh one hundred, both by
Shawn Shin: I I. To the six games,
Shawn Shin: one kilohertz per centimeters to it, and a transit science breath of roughly some
Shawn Shin: great. So this is the more exciting part of the talk. So the Hrtpd is
Shawn Shin: a product that is currently being developed at income,
Shawn Shin: and it is actually available today.
Shawn Shin: So what this is is a ten by ten centimeter squared, and
Shawn Shin: so it also has a
Shawn Shin: um, specifically ten micron ports.
Shawn Shin: These are also available in class or ceramic bodies, and we produce two different versions of the Hrp.
Shawn Shin: One is a capacitor couple, one which is identical to the Ltp. That which is shown, and the other one is a direct couple Hrtp. Which is the one you see on the right hand side.
Shawn Shin: So what you see, here are,
Shawn Shin: and the bottom diagram is a thousand and twenty, four,
Shawn Shin: two, two point five times two point, five millimeters squared pixel.
Shawn Shin: So um!
Shawn Shin: This is still a product and in development. But
Shawn Shin: we
Shawn Shin: this is a photo of Q. We scan um That was actually our first ever scan, and here is our preliminary result,
Shawn Shin: we're getting a ju of roughly twenty percent,
Shawn Shin: three, sixty, five minutes.
Shawn Shin: And as for gain and dark rates,
Shawn Shin: we're see similar results to that of the
Shawn Shin: with A, with a configuration of nine hundred votes on the across, and one hundred four. That's photo chat. So we're See I ten to six,
Shawn Shin: and again around one kilohertz per centimeter squared
Shawn Shin: one great,
Shawn Shin: and on the left hand side is the transition distribution for the Hrtp.
Shawn Shin: So um during the Gaussian bit to the to the core. We're getting a segment of roughly fifty picoseconds
on the right hand side.
Shawn Shin: We need to perform
Shawn Shin: Central to to determine the position of the initial laser hit on the Hrpc. And it was calculated
Shawn Shin: one hundred and forty micro.
Shawn Shin: So this is the pricing model for the
Shawn Shin: so it's always a trend where
Shawn Shin: basically the more tile of the order, the
Shawn Shin: or not, the tile increases.
Shawn Shin: Please feel free to reach out to us for more details.
Shawn Shin: Alright, So
Shawn Shin: if i'm on going after it,
Shawn Shin: we recently this um magnetic field measurements at Argon, with the help rate
Shawn Shin: uh and you will be getting into the details of the results in this talk,
Shawn Shin: and another.
Shawn Shin: Another development that we're pursuing is
Shawn Shin: the low thermal coefficient of resistance,
Shawn Shin: and they
Shawn Shin: and this will. This may be covered in a neo stock later on.
Shawn Shin: So another interesting talk is by Call Hamel, and he will be addressing the L. A. Td. And Hrtpd. And their upcoming upgrades. Uh, in response to
Shawn Shin: uh, our collaboration with E. I. C. And one of the upgrades is to
Shawn Shin: Well, one of the tasks is to extend the photo after response to roughly, four hundred and fifty-nine,
Shawn Shin: where our current is roughly three sixty we've also done some device, lifetime measurements and parking school.
Shawn Shin: Yeah, if you talk on that as well.
Shawn Shin: And as mentioned, Alexi will be giving a talk on how we seek to enhance the active area of the La. Pdp and the Hr. But also increase its ability to
Shawn Shin: with minimal dead states for
Shawn Shin: especially large The
Shawn Shin: and
Shawn Shin: uh our collaborator at collaborator at
Shawn Shin: he has received a Z. Slack, though with Tpd. Recently. That is,
Shawn Shin: that has been developed to be used in the Lhc. The timing layer.
Shawn Shin: I believe you will be going over some interesting results,
his populator as well.
Shawn Shin: So that will sum up my introduction
Shawn Shin: and thank you for listening, and I hope everyone has a good time. Thank you.
simona: Uh, Thank you. Shawn. Um, please, for your question for the end of the workshop. Um!
simona: We'll move to that. Then we go ahead.
Deb Sankar Bhattacharya: Okay, I will share my screen. Then.
Okay,
Deb Sankar Bhattacharya: Do you see my screen?
simona: Uh: yes,
Deb Sankar Bhattacharya: Okay,
simona: You have that meeting.
Deb Sankar Bhattacharya: Yeah, Thank you. So hello, everyone.
Deb Sankar Bhattacharya: And
Deb Sankar Bhattacharya: so we um from? Uh. So we just had a test. Been on the Lpd at uh some Ps.
Deb Sankar Bhattacharya: And we we finished it last week, and this is a joint. This was a joint effort by Anf and Threes day, an if in Genoa and Bienl
Deb Sankar Bhattacharya: and our main goal was basically to measure the single photoelectron time Resolution of the Lpd.
Deb Sankar Bhattacharya: And then in the next talk, Um, Sylvia will be um some um practical issues that we face during our B test, and then the results will be presented by Michel in the next talk, and then we can discuss, and the whole um
everything in the next, and discussion session,
Deb Sankar Bhattacharya: and then I would uh jump into the
Deb Sankar Bhattacharya: Uh. This schematic Uh. Well, this is a very simple schematic to show you how we mounted the Lpd. Basically we mounted the lipid in the backward direction. So the beam is Um, the the redoubt part of the lipid is facing the beam.
Deb Sankar Bhattacharya: And uh,
Deb Sankar Bhattacharya: this is the radiator. So the sharing of photons are being produced in the radiator and also on the window of the Lpd. Now, of course, the being fish is the sip in which is our trigger system, and then the beam goes to the
Deb Sankar Bhattacharya: Uh. Mcp. Uh Pmt. Is how much it's which we are using for timing. So in simple, this is our our main uh schematic.
Deb Sankar Bhattacharya: We are using uh this uh this beam in a in parasitic mode. So we are sharing. Uh, we are the downstream of the and and sharing the being with the do this prototype. So if you can see my cursor, this is the direction of the headron being. This is the duty prototype, and this is where we are sitting. This is, and uh,
Deb Sankar Bhattacharya: our dark box, which contains the everybody and and all other things.
Deb Sankar Bhattacharya: Another picture on the right shows and the dark box here. Ah, okay. So
Deb Sankar Bhattacharya: And now, just to identify which is what? From the schematic. So the first element here this is the Lpd. Then we have this small as very clear as the radiator, then we have the ipm, and then this is the Mcp. And the beam is essentially going like this.
Deb Sankar Bhattacharya: Okay, so. And the first output, of course, we we are monitoring and the online uh signals. As you can see, this large purple signal is the Ipm signaled, and then we have the Lipvd signal, and this is the large uh signal from the Mcp.
Deb Sankar Bhattacharya: And and this is another,
Deb Sankar Bhattacharya: a result from the simulation um Nice and jen for simulation, which shows, and this the outer ring is due to the and the chunk of photon are um produced at the at the radiator. And this is the due to that um due to the photos produced in the video window.
Deb Sankar Bhattacharya: So this is something we are uh we are expecting at the end.
Deb Sankar Bhattacharya: So we started our work with L. Pbd. Number eighty-seven. This is a a well known as the could be to us. We have been using it for almost one year now, and this is on at the bottom. You. You can see that this is the the redoubt board of the It is a eight by eight
Deb Sankar Bhattacharya: an area of um. I read out pads.
Deb Sankar Bhattacharya: But, Um. Okay, We We We face some problem at some point, and then we decided to move to another Lpd. From eighty-seven We moved to one hundred and twenty-four,
and the details will be discussed in the next talk.
Deb Sankar Bhattacharya: But these are the main or the the the the the we we used. In. Our You know our team test
Deb Sankar Bhattacharya: we are using just to make premiums by Nf. In general. This is a simple schematic, and this is one, a small unit, you can see,
Deb Sankar Bhattacharya: and and the final version comprises eight improved and output per unit. So this is the the final version of the box that we have used. We are reading out thirty, two genes. So you can see we we need um Four of such a boxes
Deb Sankar Bhattacharya: and the boxes stays outside the dark box.
Deb Sankar Bhattacharya: Okay, And for the H we set up. We initially started with the model kind. Fourteen uh seventeen
Deb Sankar Bhattacharya: uh, But then we switch to this model this desktop model one thousand four hundred and fifty Dt. And this is useful. The one for the grounding second is, it has um.
Deb Sankar Bhattacharya: It has the provision to stack channels which make it makes it a lot easier to to supply, want to, just to multiple channels at the same time.
Deb Sankar Bhattacharya: And um, Okay. So the first a row is Well, let me start from the middle load. The middle law is the is the input channel. Then this is K. Forward to the to the top rule, and of course the bottom row is the output channel, and if you look carefully, this is just an example how we applied the voltage,
Deb Sankar Bhattacharya: and if you can still identify, this is the small schematic of the Lpd. And this is how we have connected. And now probably you can make sense from the number how they are added and applied. Um, The potential is applied here. So this is the incremental value, and these are the absolute values,
Deb Sankar Bhattacharya: and we applied it to the Lpd. This is just one example.
Deb Sankar Bhattacharya: Okay, Um. For the electronics we are using, and the Vme. And so that the Digitizer board is v seventeen and forty-two. The controller is the seventeen eighteen,
Deb Sankar Bhattacharya: and this um The digitizer bought it in one thousand seven hundred and forty-two uses um this and Ds for chips. So one board has in total four tips. It has a five giga samples per second, the sampling rate. So one sample would be two hundred p a second.
Deb Sankar Bhattacharya: It can take thirty two channels. It has two fast triggers, one global trigger and
Deb Sankar Bhattacharya: each channel has one thousand and twenty-four switch capacitor areas which we call the sales and partnership. We have one twelve bit Edc:
Deb Sankar Bhattacharya: So this is the the the idea of the of the electronics board,
Deb Sankar Bhattacharya: and for the trigger we are using Howamat Samecp as Sorry. This Uh: okay, M. S. I. Pm: And this is the model number. Uh, along with a an area of uh scintillating fibers. So it is a ten by ten um, very often by ten
Deb Sankar Bhattacharya: uh each having a diameter of five hundred micrometer. This Ipm active area is six millimeter squared.
Deb Sankar Bhattacharya: And so this is the the basic setup which also mounts the the the radiator lens, which is very useful for the alignment. And here you can see this ipm on the amplifier board.
Then for the timing we are using,
Deb Sankar Bhattacharya: and it has a score of walls window with a diameter of eleven um millimeter. It has a broad Uh spectral response, which which Ps. At four hundred and thirty and a meter.
Deb Sankar Bhattacharya: And uh, well, you can see
Deb Sankar Bhattacharya: this is the signal. I will time and difference. So in this in this particular study, this is taken from this reference. They use two of such an incps, and this is the difference, the time difference, and we can see the see, the the sigma, which is seven, because second, which in a way.
Deb Sankar Bhattacharya: Um, it clears that. And this is a very suitable um instrument, for in this kind of measurement.
Deb Sankar Bhattacharya: Okay? And then uh, well, this is how uh, we, we. We use our time in the in the in the B test. So we had a fourteen day of bin time in the parasitic mode,
Deb Sankar Bhattacharya: but honestly, we could not get good, being, uh more than fifty percent of the time they had different Um, you know, issues
Deb Sankar Bhattacharya: uh in solution to us almost two days. Then the seven days were were very intense, because we up to installing we we started to do our basic studies, and then we found some problem with the with the eighty-seven Lpd. Then we had to change time to one hundred and twenty four. Then reinstallation and conditioning of the photo Catholic also took us some time, because in this case, in this one hundred and twenty-four, the photo Catholic needed some conditioning
Deb Sankar Bhattacharya: Then we found another issue, which is the ground mismatch of the one hundred and twenty-four tied to the common board. All this will be discussed in the next next talk, so debugging and
Deb Sankar Bhattacharya: fixing the problem because um almost or more than a week, then we had other optimizations to do. We found several of severe ringing issues across the issues, and Then we decided to um to block or to must the beam pad. This will also be
Deb Sankar Bhattacharya: discussed in detail in the next talks. So then, at the end we got only thirty-six hours of good um beam time, which is not a lot of time. But we we we still have some some luck with with with some data.
Deb Sankar Bhattacharya: So this is how we we uh had our time.
Deb Sankar Bhattacharya: Well, that's that's more or less it. I had one more um slide just to show you how we um coupled everything with the
Deb Sankar Bhattacharya: with the with the cables. Um. But okay, the only let's the conclusion. Probably I could find here that next time we are looking for a new boat we would probably go with the Mcs tight, the connectors, because in a small
Deb Sankar Bhattacharya: Okay, so i'm also done so. If there is a question and we can see it then. Thank you. Thank you. Uh, see you There you are up next
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): um
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): full screen. Now, what have I done? Sorry.
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): Ah, yeah, yeah. I
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): full screen
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): for L. He it?
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): Uh, basically uh, this is the second talk of our uh, as you heard from that we had a number of problems, but this was a good opportunity to learn. Let's start with high voltage power supply.
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): This is the scheme suggested by income that with small differences is implemented by several groups of colleagues. Here you see the implementation at Bnl. This is the high board that you need to, uh you in Bologna.
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): And now all these kind modules have a common feature, the common floating return, which means that when you are power in one of the micro-channel plates.
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): This is the real schematic of what we are doing, which allows for some current that that flows back to the generator
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): in unpredicted uh behavior. Uh, the first one is that the voltage at the bottom of your microchannel plate is not the is not the stable,
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): the short developed on the uh exit. The micro channel plate can be related to this way of powering it,
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): and uh, uh, therefore, um! And by the way, also, the current that you did, of course, are affected by this behavior, and you have related over voltage alarms,
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): which means that you have to use something different
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): now something different that was identified in this you need to already describe by that. And what is to be under line is that really? You can use it as a set of batteries, and build up the voltage one over the other
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): in a scheme which is uh can be uh electrically a really clean uh this. We borrow that some in a hurry. We do not pretend that it is the only things on the world, but
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): now a a different item uh namely about uh a photo of uh quality
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): uh in in a hurry. After the accident of the eighty-seven we received the from income t one hundred and twenty-four the replacement that uh has a very high term. I know It's a mission
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): uh of course, this was a problem our the goal of our test being for that of measuring the time and the solution, and without ideal, the voltage on the photo capital. This can only be compromised,
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): and uh, this also points to the fact that we need to have information about the yeah, the of a good uh photo uh to plan for the future
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): Uh, the high voltage is distributed, using this kind of logo in connectors, and they are touching on a very small strips, as the one that you can appreciate in this picture,
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): because there is no test point for this.
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): Another problem is that of the active surface
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): Uh, the green square indicates the the area of the tile. And so the between this, the internal red and the green, you have the that area which is irreducible,
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): because otherwise you lose more than fifty percent of your active a surface in an arrangement in which you put that one near to the other,
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): and therefore all the electrical connection should be organized in a vertical configuration in this pin corridor between inner red and green.
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): Uh and uh, um,
This
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): Why, I cannot.
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): Okay, Okay, this is my last slide, and I leave a comments and questions, for at the end. Thank you so much.
Mikhail Osipenko: Okay.
Mikhail Osipenko: Do you see my slides?
Mikhail Osipenko: Uh, with various uh other and beams? Well meets beams in the setup already described in the previous presentations. Uh, first of all, I start with expected results. Uh be because in previous tests in the lab Andreas. We observe it that um, let's say uh electronics only uh estimated the uh possible single photon resolution could reach uh fourteen picosec.
Mikhail Osipenko: Uh. This does not include the any time transition spread. Uh, uh, this is, uh uh only based on the signal right time and the signal to knows ratio
Mikhail Osipenko: uh. So we optimized our uh set up at the Cern uh to keep all other uncertainties on timing below. Twenty percent of these numbers, so um below say, uh nine or ten uh picosecond
Mikhail Osipenko: uh, Now I I i'm going to the results. Here you can see overlap of a few signals uh from uh on the left uh uh of la Pd. Measured by these uh kind uh Drs for uh digitizer, and uh, on the right uh of a hammer, maths, Cp: Uh again the one described by Deb. As you can see, the rice time for a Ppd. Was found to be uh
Mikhail Osipenko: uh the with a uh fifty on law that you would expect uh a much smaller um time. Uh the second problem, which which was a uh, let's say one of the major uh issues with uh, our um uh in in our experiment was that the close talk of multiple hits
Mikhail Osipenko: inside the La Ppd. While in single hit measurements like those made with laser. Possibly the signals uh each individual signal is very clean, and also thermal uh noise. Signals are very clean. However, when we go to multiple uh heats events with, uh, let's say, very large number of pads uh activated by the sharing of ring and the beam spot. In this case, in our case
Mikhail Osipenko: of a a cern, a testima uh the the the strong. The cross stop was observed uh about from depending on the channel, and the it's proximity to the beam pipe to the beam, a sport, and the other uh uh issues uh, from thirty to ninety percent of events were affected by uh, uh, these cross stalk between channels, and you can see examples of this cross stalk in the bottom.
Mikhail Osipenko: Here you can see the the, the, the Co. The coincidence between Uh. Mcp. In Green Kamala from Cp. And Green and La Ppg. Signal. Uh, you see that in this case this is a pure Am I? Uh signal, and it doesn't have any peak. It's just the some kind of reflection from other channels, while in on the right you have a a signal which is uh affected by uh, uh, Kirstal, Can you see?
Mikhail Osipenko: Including this factor? Um, the the the measured uh in the uh, and uh um calculated uh, let's say from data sheet uh uh gain agrees very well uh instead, for uh, for the other tile for the new tile uh, we expect that the one almost one point, three pico coulomb, but per single photon. Uh and uh, we observed something. Um,
Mikhail Osipenko: Um!
Mikhail Osipenko: We could reach simply from the Uh electronics point of view uh six picoseconds, while Hamamad swim. Cp: which is faster, as you can see, you could see in the first slides uh it could reach even one picosecond ideally uh resolution
Mikhail Osipenko: uh the measure. The resolution, instead, is shown here below in the plots for all heats and the for a single for the electron heats. Uh, they are almost the same in the they all the all of the of ninety hundred uh picoseconds.
Mikhail Osipenko: And this is my summary. We measure it uh timing for a single photo electrons. It is a ten times larger than our naive estimates without uh Tts
Mikhail Osipenko: um web served sharing of things also thirty, two channels limited. Our coverage
Mikhail Osipenko: uh beam spot was effectively suppressed. Uh L. A. Ppd. Showed the uh somewhat three times a uh slower rice time with respect to to some naive estimates,
Mikhail Osipenko: events, measurements. Thank you. I'm done. Thank you.
simona: So we have ten minutes for questions and discussions on Diana and in the September. Uh. So if you want to comment or ask a question, just unmute and speak up. You don't have to write your hand, so please go ahead.
Bernhard: Yeah,
Bernhard: i'm wondering. So this was really interesting to see those results with the amplifiers on the La Pd. But i'm wondering if you had ever considered using the amplified uh capacity, coupled board so with the bo that you showed are the non-amplified ones with the little transformers I believe. Uh, I designed that one. I also designed when I was at income
Bernhard: a board with sixty-four pads for capacitive coupling that have amplifiers in each channel.
Bernhard: I don't know if you know of that board, and maybe you could use it.
Mikhail Osipenko: We didn't know anything about that board, and uh we we, we didn't have chance to use it, Of course Well, it it it is in some sense it is very similar to what we have done. Yeah. But I mean that this already exists, and how sixty, four four channels, and of again
Bernhard: uh, and for the Italians I called it the Lamborghini, because it's high performance and hot it consumes about fifty watts. Uh before all these amplifiers. But anyways ask your income, colleagues for the Lamborghini Board.
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): But was it's designed, and the very large cross of between tenants,
Bernhard: to which extent the crosstock comes from the la ppd, and to which extent it comes from the readout board. Isn't quite clear yet. Uh, but in any case, um the uh,
Bernhard: I mean all these boards, the Lamborghini, and also the passive board, do have, uh, do make use of differential signals as much as possible to reduce the prox talk.
M. Popecki: Hi, Mark Peck here! Um! So the the rise time, uh that you, observing this three quarters of a nanosecond
M. Popecki: is really driven by the diameter, the micro channels twenty microns, and then it's with a ten micron. It's more like half a nanosecond. Rise, time,
M. Popecki: and the transit time spread that you're observing here is also largely driven by the photo cathode voltage.
M. Popecki: Ideally, you'd be able to go to a hundred volts or higher on the photo.
Mikhail Osipenko: We have some data with larger voltage on photoc method. But unfortunately it was a taking note in the last configuration, so I will try to analyze it, but i'm not sure it's reliable enough.
Deb Sankar Bhattacharya: And also if I'm. Accounts also for one hundred and twenty four
Deb Sankar Bhattacharya: in your manual. It was a written fifty vote was the suitable range. So
Mikhail Osipenko: anyhow, we we all were. Yeah, it was the the the the suggested optimal uh configuration uh for these for this board. By the way it's it's It's It's optimal, you know. That's a balance of you know the gain and the dark rates. But for the timing you really need to be a hundred volts or higher. But if you look on the plot that's been changed, so measured for this specific dial, it actually already constant. At fifty uh volts,
Mikhail Osipenko: you you you provided the data sheet with
Mikhail Osipenko: the Tt. Has improved quite a lot. But I I have a plot in figure Ten of these uh Uh Lpd one hundred and twenty-four, which shows that it uh actually uh flat and sapped out the the the the distribution at the almost ninety uh picoseconds for this specific board, I guess. Uh,
M. Popecki: Ah, okay. So that that is not measured by me. By the way it's it is written. It is written something that I don't. I don't know. I don't know that that's that's measured it's measured by a sender, and we don't in that measure. And we're not taking out any electronics uncertainty,
Mikhail Osipenko: and maybe not even the laser uncertainty either. Okay,
cole hamel: yeah, this is a Lexi here from income. I I want to comment on the difference between time
cole hamel: Francis Times spread between Cam and March to in the
cole hamel: Uh Pmc. Pmt. On the income. So the the the, the, the the main difference come from the poor size I come i'm not to uh Mc. P. And T. Has, to our knowledge, six micromores, and uh uh income Lepd has twenty microm course.
cole hamel: And uh, that's the That's where the timing
cole hamel: a difference come from,
cole hamel: so we can we? We do also
cole hamel: ten micro andcps with a with a better timing.
cole hamel: Well, approximately thirty picoseconds or so
They
Andrew Brandt: this is Andrew. I don't know any how about to Pmt. That as a single um
Andrew Brandt: photo electron transit time resolution of ten P. Two seconds.
Andrew Brandt: That that's extremely. It really sounds like a multiple.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: This number is taking from from the data sheet. It's not. But for a single for the electron ten picoseconds is is
Vincenzo Vagnoni: I'm: i'm not sure it is for single for the electron, but it it. It is a number from data sheet
Vincenzo Vagnoni: of the device that could be such performance.
Andrew Brandt: Yeah, Yeah, no, my, I i'm not referring to that data. I referring to a data sheet uh of the
Samo Korpar: Okay, but it's probably not far away, some of here uh, actually measuring the the same ones that are using top. But we got including the electronics and laser, was twenty-five picoseconds, sigma,
Samo Korpar: and in that sheet on the measurement, of how much actually it was we did have boxing of about thirty to twenty-five, because I so uh
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): Jerry was trying to contribute.
Jerry Vavra: Yeah, I would like to set make one comment uh
Jerry Vavra: uh I had in my hands about fifteen
Jerry Vavra: um
Jerry Vavra: plan a cone from barrel,
Jerry Vavra: and so I have. It's not based on experience of one, two, but many.
Jerry Vavra: And we we started also with again of amplifier gain of ten,
Jerry Vavra: and at the end to develop Ev Dirk in Tesby
Jerry Vavra: to keep
Jerry Vavra: the gain on the tube
Jerry Vavra: below ten to the six. In fact, we were running about five times ten to the five. The
Jerry Vavra: The reason was that when you push the gain
Jerry Vavra: well, nominally, you might think that noise is under control, but the Mcp can go into sudden instabilities from various reasons, and it's kind of dangerous to to to plan on high gain with these devices. That's my experience.
Jerry Vavra: Uh, as far as
Jerry Vavra: uh
Jerry Vavra: on the bench transit time spread. The best one I had was about thirty picoseconds with Mcp, and it didn't almost matter whether it's ten micron or twenty twenty-five micron a whole
Jerry Vavra: third command
Jerry Vavra: um
Jerry Vavra: yes, if you in fact, I was the first one to see that if you hit the Mcp with ten or more single photo electrons, spread it all over. You get coherent resonances, and this has never been solved by borough. In in fact, in plan account it existed
Jerry Vavra: uh all along,
Jerry Vavra: and it has something to do with the distribution of the back plane and high voltage, retail ground return.
Jerry Vavra: And so this has to be really solved on the on the very detailed level. If you want to eliminate it. Okay, that's my comment.
simona: We will have to wrap up. Sorry uh we are over a minute, so please continue offline
simona: uh some of these are your type.
simona: Um! I just have a really important comment on
Andrew Brandt: Okay, Yeah. So for Atlas forward proton detector, this Cross talk issue was attacked.
Andrew Brandt: Um, and the new uh back end electronics was developed
Andrew Brandt: to reduce this cross, which dominantly comes from the ground plane fluctuation. That's why you have that big negative going part of your post.
Andrew Brandt: It's the whole ground. Us late.
Andrew Brandt: So uh, yeah, Talk to Michael. Reason back to that.
simona: Thank you.
simona: Someone Please go ahead.
Samo Korpar: Okay, thank you. So let me show uh some update on the measurement that the you'll be on about the early Ppd: We actually had it uh until the beginning of May. So we are still analyzing
Samo Korpar: uh. So what we need to it we interesting basically, mostly in charge, sharing to see what size of pets we can use with this capacitive coupling timing. And also we test it to uh, electronic systems, pets and plastic
Samo Korpar: uh on this device.
Samo Korpar: So um, we have a one hundred and nine sample, and it has a uh, you know, the parameters. But basically the back plane is five billing. It's a big loss which is defines the compositive cockpit sharing.
Samo Korpar: We use. The Alpha loss. Alpha lasts picola at pico power laser with twenty pic a second full. We have mocks at then blue coal or basically and the about one hundred microns and sport, and the results are still really so. This is a classical setup that we use. We also use this uh
Samo Korpar: cascading, actually a floating power supply. Uh, one thing to mention is that actually for Mcp to the power that we needed was more than zero point. Six watt, which is the limit. And so we use two channels, cascade it. And in this case, actually, after several hours, or sometimes few days.
Samo Korpar: Okay. So uh, we, the lap. Pd. Came with the standard back plane from income, and with this eight by eight, one inch pets,
Samo Korpar: and we also made the test uh back plan. So this one has this uh to link with the Uh transformers that actually also.
Samo Korpar: And what is the signal? And what we made was directly coupled to uh back plane with the different patterns from one inch to three millimeters strips, and for two different electronics, three basically modular. With this uh Coxell connectors and then pets these connectors, and the for fasting board connectors here. So we used
Samo Korpar: part of those for the tests. Now this is the oscilloscope, just the stereoscope uh
Samo Korpar: the picture of the signal that comes directly out when we use the income board, and this is the signal that comes out from one inch path when we uh use our board that is copied directly. So without inviting polarity.
Samo Korpar: Uh:
Samo Korpar: okay, this is just the explanation of the model of electronics. I will not go through uh, just for the completeness. What we usually do basically in this smaller test is to measure agency and the the and Tdc.
Samo Korpar: And then correlation and correct some function and then correct it. Tdc: spectrum, uh which uh, this is in Vienna scale. So you can see this pronounce the main peak, and then the back scattering Uh, that goes in this case after two nanoseconds. Basically
Samo Korpar: So the Sigma it's one hundred and fifty volts of uh photo ketos to N Cp: one uh
Samo Korpar: voltage Uh: we reached about forty picoseconds. Basically This is for the main peak. Of course, the the full distribution is this, and this four distribution is, it has the
Samo Korpar: and uh, there is some probably optical reflection outside which is not correlated with Mcp. But we didn't study in detail this. It's a very small contribution from our setup. I guess.
Samo Korpar: So to confirm the behavior, or with different uh Pc. Uh photo cap to Mcp. One voltages we measured that different from from one hundred and fifty volts, which gives, of course, the best timing down to uh thirty words, and you can see that the um timing becomes worse.
Samo Korpar: Uh, also for this reflective peak. But the position of this speaker remains the same, while everything else stretches. So basically that's why we believe this is an extended conclusion which doesn't matter
Samo Korpar: uh So the if we plot now the sigma is a function of the voltage, basically we come from about seventy-five to down to forty, and that still seems to be a room for improvement. If we could go All these various also includes that this uh contribution from laser and electronics, which is roughly at the same level as
Samo Korpar: the laser contribution. Twenty picoseconds,
Samo Korpar: a full bit of mocks. Uh So uh, and these are the Sigma. Yeah. Uh: So this is the timing part. Then. Uh, as I said, we were interested in the uh charges, but I, the new start spread on the back plane, and uh,
Samo Korpar: the what is the main contribution we expect? It is due to the capacity of coupling. So similar is in both of our members. But just to be sure, we also measure the two different voltages between Mcp. Two
Samo Korpar: and the and not uh one would expect that if this is contribution from the electrons spreading in this space, that this will be reduced by about square root of the voltage applied.
Samo Korpar: And what you see is basically what we usually plot is the charge measure at the pad divided by the charge. The charge measure on all pets.
Samo Korpar: This is well-defined, and does not depend on the uh variation of gain. We inside the uh device. So you can see that it follows nicely uh some curve which is, can be rather easily to the zero approximation explained by the induced charge on the infinite street. So this is just the uh function that is ploted, and it's the same, and up and down
Samo Korpar: uh resistive, and not to the capacity of couple pests, which are five millimeters away behind the glass window. The right plot, and just the logarithmic scale where you can see some other features like back scattering range of the electrons. This green belt, that on the main belt, which is the direct. He
Samo Korpar: uh no, just a blow up of these
Samo Korpar: uh, which shows how the charge is shared. One can use in principle this to better position, calculate better position of the uh initial uh charge that he's the A not.
Samo Korpar: And uh, it also shows basically what is the
Samo Korpar: uh, but the range of bags. Gathering photo electrons is also as expected, around six millimeters
Samo Korpar: uh. So comparing this to a positive couple of device with direct a and it's this be short already lifetime. So here the contribution is from the electron spread between Mcp two and the end not. And here basically it's the positive copying. So you can see that in this configuration basically the compositive coupling contributes much
Samo Korpar: more.
Samo Korpar: No, uh, we also measured uh, prepares basically the different patterns. This is the five millimeters stage, but it's not. It's actually uh one inch divided by uh,
Samo Korpar: one, two, three, four, five
Samo Korpar: pets. So it's a roughly five millimeters, and we also measure how the signal actually is in use in this matter. Over smaller pets
Samo Korpar: you can see that the one can measure roughly forty percent of the signal in such a five millimeters
Samo Korpar: uh compared to the total signal that is induced on the back on the uh uh electrode. And the timing basically on this trip is still, uh roughly around forty picoseconds. So,
Samo Korpar: and uh try to estimate uh the amount of charge that is measured. This waiting field in on the left. We used actually a rather simple calculation where we uh neglected the the, the the electric constant of the Uh glass which
Samo Korpar: overall actually reduces the amount of induced charge in the calculation, but the distribution is roughly the same as if you calculate properly uh with the proper, the electric constant of the glass, So the distribution is, you can see the comparison here. There are two curves, basically one uh distribution, using this simple method and the other one the proper calculation uh using the
Samo Korpar: the the electric constant so to but the left one is faster. So we use the left one to estimate what one can expect in the different size of pets,
Samo Korpar: and we have this six to five,
Samo Korpar: and if you use the ceramic back, then, which is two millimeters, and you can in principle, reduce the M. Cp. Out to end up. Then you would end up with this lower one, two to two
Samo Korpar: uh this is, I will just go to this lower one. Basically Here everything is normalized to what you what you can measure with the one inch pet
Samo Korpar: uh uh
Samo Korpar: configuration, basically a ceramic back plane. Then one could expect about seventy to eighty percent on five millimeters pets, which is probably something similar to see. Zoom had right to chambers that are used for uh an integer detector. So this could be.
Samo Korpar: This is commercial. One day it's made for pit, for larger signals, but we, anyway, attached to to see what we can get.
Samo Korpar: And these are just some data that you can check. Uh. So we had one hundred and twenty-eight five millimeter uh
Samo Korpar: basically six millimeters pets, four by four in one inch, and you can see that the signal spreads actually around. This is in the scale on the order of nine pets. And if you calculate the center of gravity, basically you can get this is in pets. The scale is in bed, so you can get on the order of one tenth of the Ted, let's say, size half a millimeter, or better, at a solution. Probably this we still need to analyze better, and for the timing
Samo Korpar: uh. This electronics also provides time over threshold. So you can try to correct to this uh information for timing. And this is the correlation. And when you correct the Tdc information we ended up with roughly, eighty picoseconds with this electronic, which is also reasonably good. So this is one electronics that we tried on the La. P Pd. The other one is
Samo Korpar: signal on the nearby pet induced ped with model or electronics. We are working now on the just to see how much we can correct this timing if we have also additional poolsite information. And this we are still uh working on. So
Samo Korpar: uh, yeah, that's all. Basically I didn't put any uh
Samo Korpar: somebody slides. So these are the This is the current status of the the analysis we don't have the device of the measurements uh finished some time ago. Thank you.
Jerry Vavra: At At what game did you operate this device?
Samo Korpar: Huh?
Samo Korpar: So
Samo Korpar: the Us. Probably I mean not really the highest possible. But uh,
Samo Korpar: close to that. So but we didn't estimate, really. What was the game? Yeah.
Samo Korpar: So let me see. Yes,
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): no,
Samo Korpar: no. Basically All is done with a spot like a nomination at different positions. Yeah.
Samo Korpar: Yes, it's. It looks like that. Yeah,
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): Thank you.
simona: Okay. Any more questions or comment.
simona: Okay, If you think of anything you can put it in the chat, we can move on to our intended
Alexander Kiselev: someone. Can you please stop sharing?
Samo Korpar: I should do that. Okay, let me see.
Samo Korpar: Okay, Thank you.
So you want to. Can you see my slides?
simona: Yes,
Alexander Kiselev: uh, okay, uh, good day, everybody. And so i'm going to report uh on the R. And D. The I'm. Writing here at Brooklyn there.
Alexander Kiselev: So, in fact, it is typically a collaborative effort without institutions, and I will indicate the collaborating parties.
Alexander Kiselev: We are appropriate.
Alexander Kiselev: So there are four topics. So one is June, the twentieth twenty two. Do you test that formula?
Alexander Kiselev: So the other one is work on Dc. Coupled Hrp. Database, which we started recently.
Alexander Kiselev: Third one is,
Alexander Kiselev: and just a single slide about the Hrpd application in a top uh uh positive one emission demography set up,
Alexander Kiselev: and then a couple of slides about the practical uh proposal of uh implementing the proximity focusing which is this type of for the sensors for the uh, everything. But you will see. The following is mostly founded by E. I. C. R. In the um
Alexander Kiselev: in the program, and in particular with this it is erd one hundred and ten times work from photosensors for us.
Alexander Kiselev: So let me start with the beam test in June. So it is Brookhave and the income Argon and Mississippi State, and n of them.
Alexander Kiselev: So the setup which we use the was pretty much the same as uh in two thousand and twenty-one, where the focus was on uh demonstrating special resolution of uh the leds. And um so this data was reported um up a year ago. So i'm repeating this. So we achieved
Alexander Kiselev: something like six hundred microns
Alexander Kiselev: uh. So this year we added, uh jet worker as a reference. Um. So for gym stations, and we also considered aiding the timing. I layer on the Cpm. Ts: Um, Unfortunately uh, this was not a success story, so we did not get reliable as the timing Testament from those ones,
Alexander Kiselev: so certainly not on the level which we were hoping to get.
Alexander Kiselev: Um. So this was uh one of the issues. Um. So then, that i'm listing. Here is the characteristics of Uh Jen, two lic detail one hundred and thirty, six, which is more than one.
Alexander Kiselev: We're still micro and four Mcs.
Alexander Kiselev: Um. So it was still not a full ceramic um which implies that there was a five millimeter thick am at base plate, but it would mostly, you know, affect the special resolution, I think, rather than
Alexander Kiselev: rather than on the timing one. So the the focus of this particular zoom desk was uh timing so the same as in the.
Alexander Kiselev: So we built two new one. We don't board the pixelated with our board
Alexander Kiselev: without boards. Um! I should also mentioned that of course we are interested in um timing performance in the find that is related to the configuration.
Alexander Kiselev: So this particular board. Um, as you can see. Um. So this would be twenty by twenty. The Lev Pd active area. So the single quadrant is basically designed in such a way that to optimize
Alexander Kiselev: detection, efficiency for a particular turn of wind configuration,
Alexander Kiselev: and we were using the same as well.
Alexander Kiselev: There was an issue with the Board design, and must admit. So we were hoping to get simultaneously ring, imaging and
Alexander Kiselev: and time of flight performance by shooting beam all through the center of this pattern
Alexander Kiselev: and Um, obtaining timing preference for multiple photons produced in the quartz window, and at the same time detecting single t rank of phones. On this conference of the ring.
Alexander Kiselev: So this uh part did not work. Uh. So what we did not realize was that even that uh, these boards are pretty much optimized for the crossoft, so we'll we'll report it last time. That cross stock level is a few percent uh, but the trouble is that there are one hundred photons uh, roughly in this spot, and a few percent times one hundred.
Alexander Kiselev: It's substantial. So you can see that, for example, routing in one of the directions, and from from this board to the connectors. Well done vertically, and you can clearly see that in the same way, or where you know traces from the central pixels. You're routed you completely. They complete one hundred and fifty.
Alexander Kiselev: The dominant over single problem is sponsored. So at the end we had to uh ground. Actually uh all these files. And on the next picture you can see the mark uh subjected the experimental area, and actually grounding uh these plants.
Alexander Kiselev: So. The idea of the analysis here, which is not finished yet is that one can use
Alexander Kiselev: is the lack of uh, single uh, high, high high resolution, time and reference, so one can use relative time in between these clusters to actually extract the um the time it um resolution.
Alexander Kiselev: Um, you can see experimental set up here, so it's pretty much the same as last time. Ltd. And earlier. This is the concluder. Now this so we're cover open and translation stages, and this is the as far as
Alexander Kiselev: this is the tile and the other class of events, again, is the absence of reliable timing reference. In order to evaluate the time of light like performance, so one can use. We call events where, in addition to
Alexander Kiselev: to the primary program, cluster like you see here on the top. So there is a second cluster produced in the off-screen target, which can be behind the Japanese
Alexander Kiselev: and The relative timing between these two clusters should in principle, provide
Alexander Kiselev: time of flight, planning performance, you know, just to estimate
Alexander Kiselev: we are hopeful. Um,
Alexander Kiselev: We eventually get the results. So we present this, as you can see in red. So the Drs. For and praise delay. Equalization is still in progress
Alexander Kiselev: so, but
Alexander Kiselev: in certain estimates one can make
Alexander Kiselev: using the feature of the Rs for chip.
Alexander Kiselev: So in principle, if you uh creatively select a pair of pixels, so you'd be miss shooting in this area. So you create a pair of Pixels neighboring pixels, and then select with a tracker events which a hit area in between these pixels and um.
Alexander Kiselev: In this case, since this is the same. The address for the calibrations is basically cancelled out of this,
Alexander Kiselev: which accumulates at most of the overall signals for us.
Alexander Kiselev: So the knowledge of difference is twenty pick a second, which means that half some would be like ten.
Alexander Kiselev: So this means that instrumental capability Certainly there. So, of course, the signals are highly correlated because they are so, it will be essentially the same photons, but electrons producing signal in these two pixels, so the other extreme one hundred and fifty
Alexander Kiselev: if one chooses events where the pixels on the same ship are sitting far away from each other.
Alexander Kiselev: So in the reverse lens configuration there is an exclusion area in the sample. So, because of the total internal reflection on the Ltd. Window backwards
Alexander Kiselev: and in principle, one can think that in this case, so these two pixels again. It's the same Jonas for trip, so they see signal induced by different groups of photons.
Alexander Kiselev: So um!
Alexander Kiselev: These signals are small, so it's overall less than ten percent uh. And so what comes out is the difference of fifty picoseconds, which means that uh, some of these two, and we probably give you on a twenty-five. Um! There's nothing surprising here. And so the bl up, as I said it's one hundred
Alexander Kiselev: so the single problem, Tts is fifteen. So eventually it gets down to twenty, maybe even ten. So there would be nothing really
Alexander Kiselev: surprisingly if you get them. So this is where we are with the context. So now in July we started working on Dc. Couple, Hrp: the interface,
Alexander Kiselev: as was shown already. So it's twelve by twelve centimeter device under the front detective area.
Alexander Kiselev: So three point, two limited pitch, and a particular optimized in a short stack.
Alexander Kiselev: So um! There are, of course, different options. Um, which one can consider to to comment this device. So what you get is just the tile, and you have to connect at least substantial fraction of this pixels some way. Um! We assume that you are not allowed to solder on a wires directly to this pad, so there should be some other way.
Alexander Kiselev: So what we can see that as a quick heck, so to speak, for a quick solution is to use low force polygons.
Alexander Kiselev: So this particular they really are proper all the way in springs, so one can hope that by queuing the the enclosure of this piece, which is, hold it
Alexander Kiselev: the directly under the door,
Alexander Kiselev: so one can probably change the force to be below fifty grams for um thing, which is times one thousand foot, is still substantial. But we don't have that many electronics channels, anyway. So we are creeping at this moment on the one hundred and fifty-six
Alexander Kiselev: uh that's in the center
Alexander Kiselev: um So the board, I mean the three d printed parts, and so the read out boards, they um being built now to the boards on their way to Book Haven already. So what you can see here, and if there are questions we can return back to this.
Alexander Kiselev: It's not of this picture. So what you can see here is the tile which is basically control between the two
Alexander Kiselev: delving plates. So the radar board is in between with the focal pins on one side and connectors on the other side
Alexander Kiselev: there are some otherliers deeply grounding concerns.
Alexander Kiselev: Um, And this is the interface to our Hmm. Two hundred and fifty-six channels of from the Us. Form. So the final integration is an interesting question. So in principle, one can use either Lgs or, as they were, insertion force. Um suspects one hundred and fifty,
Alexander Kiselev: so as a as a solid piece, together with a tile uh this will require more work. But um! So we will see what to which option is is the best. Uh. But the hope is that this simple setup will be sufficient to quantify the performance of the devices.
Alexander Kiselev: So you can see that there is a sixteen by sixteen pad. It's a located area in the middle.
Alexander Kiselev: So this is where we are with this exercise. So hopefully, this set up will be on the bench on the time scale of a few weeks.
Alexander Kiselev: Uh, now um two slides um on uh time of flight for the Commission. Tomorrow is Headlines project, which is, uh, you know the project, together with the stoning Book University.
Alexander Kiselev: Um. Of course we are not the first ones uh by far. Uh, we'll realize that the requirements uh in energy, physics, nuclear physics, and uh, in terms of simultaneous um high performance, high resolution.
Alexander Kiselev: Uh, i'll take my singular. So in these two areas, and the one can compare the numbers for particular detectors. You know the the requirements. So we want to see those time of flight applications. So one signature should be twenty seconds.
Alexander Kiselev: So the there is a little bit of mismatch between for uh medical scientists defined Cdr. And how we deal with the signals. But the the idea is the same. So to get a reasonable special resolution at at the same time uh after flight timing,
Alexander Kiselev: and of course one of the ideas.
Alexander Kiselev: Um, And what we want to do is we want to combine the existing text that you sent equipment which we gain. So you know this um with the other ongoing projects and the the expected high performance of of using sensors,
Alexander Kiselev: and then we'll use it at the source to to mimic the um the top of that set up, and we have enough challenge to equip the to addresses this
Alexander Kiselev: in addition to that, the the hope is that we can use um prison type concept for some prisms on the other end of the crystals
Alexander Kiselev: for the I compensation.
Alexander Kiselev: Um. So my last group of slides is the the proposal to to of a detector, but submitted for for the Ic. In the
Alexander Kiselev: so the idea is to recycle the if each simulation materials,
Alexander Kiselev: it would allow us to use proximity. No gap of forty centimeters. We place Silicon, Dm. Or A. With the Ldp use of a particular job. It there,
Alexander Kiselev: and at the same time, since all these particles will be crossing the sensor plane
Alexander Kiselev: all the
Alexander Kiselev: we we hope to provide high resolution,
Alexander Kiselev: any reference for time of like pid
Alexander Kiselev: uh sensor planning segmentation. Um. And so this is being played out as as we speak, so we think that it can be made for it with minimal uh amount of gaps between the sensors. So we either just ten centimeter and small Hrpds so, or a mix of ten and twenty something again.
Alexander Kiselev: And so here you can see them embedded in the frame, which towards the genetic boundary condition.
Alexander Kiselev: So this is yet to be decided with the project engineers. But at least this is the idea.
Alexander Kiselev: So then, um! If one can file this in a sense of surface without gaps, so it's easy to understand that even that charged particles will be crossing in active area outside of the photo in the tent of the and density coverage one
Alexander Kiselev: because the rank of a light cone is wide. So here it is to scale. So basically for five minutes a thick window. So the radius of this spot will be five point five millimeters.
Alexander Kiselev: And since you can see microphone, since this area at the bottom of the window is metalized,
Alexander Kiselev: so one can hope to get uh more problems like reflected back on this. Of course, the great performance. But the hope is that, uh, with this setup we can probably provide to almost one hundred percent coverage for time of flight purposes. So this here needs to be a model, of course.
Alexander Kiselev: So my last slide is ideas about integration for this device, and, in fact, for any other Hrtp: So So this is the the tile, which is one all right,
Alexander Kiselev: Seventy meters.
Alexander Kiselev: So based on the studies we made at the lab and in the beam, plus here. So we know that formula, metaphys, which will be twenty, four by twenty, four acceleration.
Alexander Kiselev: It would be sufficient to get a special resolution on the order of one thousand six hundred microns, even without the
Alexander Kiselev: So then it seems that if one uses existing now scientific chips.
Alexander Kiselev: Um!
Alexander Kiselev: One can't think of a configuration of this sixteen or maybe thirty, two on Channel Asa digitizer.
Alexander Kiselev: This decent performance, so from the sample to the second century, and Great and
Alexander Kiselev: and Ok. Big efforts and all bandits. So one needs to complement this, presumably with a painting.
Alexander Kiselev: We discuss this with the project, so the overall system will be probably up to two kilowatt of power
Alexander Kiselev: which is soon still acceptable. But this is the current thinking:
Alexander Kiselev: Um, I stop here. So you're over three minutes. So we have four minutes for questions, and the comments
simona: it go ahead.
Jerry Vavra: Have you considered a time over threshold timing instead of digitizer,
Alexander Kiselev: so we we did not. So we can do this, especially if it turns out that that such digitizers are not available
Alexander Kiselev: by by the company, by by novel. But there will be a presentation at the end where we hope for you here on something different. Uh, i'm not sure that we are getting with the existing systems down to ten percent.
Alexander Kiselev: I would say that as long as the power budget is vulnerable overall,
Alexander Kiselev: because, of course, the digitizer will be more power hungry. So I don't because the power of that is is tolerable, and uh,
Alexander Kiselev: and then you can afford them in dollars per channel. So this would probably be the best solution. But um
Alexander Kiselev: any advice uh with respect to particular system. Um, and there are many um available, so It' be appreciated. Of course
Jerry Vavra: i'll send you some mail.
Alexander Kiselev: Yeah, thank you.
Alexander Kiselev: So I should also mention, if there are no questions, so that, of course, so once we have designs of this mechanics, so like Pcd. Layouts and such they can be shared with interested parties.
M. Popecki: Alexander Mark Putpecki here. I I did not notice, or I don't recall when we were at Fermi Lab that you had any
M. Popecki: uh crosstalk with the uh traincover rings. You know, multi photon uh detection of
Alexander Kiselev: Yeah, this this cross talk between the uh shrink of light from the beam going through the window. But i'm just thinking about the the other uh pixels that you can just consider the tranquil photons.
Alexander Kiselev: Not that three, those who actually they, together with the adopters, so we can see here, so they will build according to what they are not suggested, as once, so they they completely shield the traces inside of the stack. So one can expect that the level of cross top is, is minimal,
Jerry Vavra: a random uh laser noise,
Jerry Vavra: observe quality of the chair, and covering as a function of that rate.
Alexander Kiselev: Yes, I agree. So we did not have, even if you wanted to do this. So we we didn't have the capability to um to insert the laser uh s, or even or even the led. I mean it doesn't have to be actualizer.
Jerry Vavra: It's gonna be in another. Something in some light leak will do it. Actually, also
Jerry Vavra: the control slide link
Jerry Vavra: like we did have one uncontrolled for something in future that that would be useful, too.
Alexander Kiselev: Um, yeah, I I agree. Yes, I agree. But the the hope still was, and the mistake which I'm. Produced in the design so originally this sixteen paths on the sample, so they were supposed to be connected by Ntx, and then directly on the on the real side of the board,
Alexander Kiselev: and I made last minute a change to the board, and made the from crowding to the same stack players. And this basically,
Alexander Kiselev: before.
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): Yes, But, Alexander, in real life
Alexander Kiselev: you have to have all the in the same way. No, the answer is not so in the real life you will not have, uh, so like you see here. So this is your python, and these are your connectors right? So you have to make traces between the two areas,
Alexander Kiselev: you will be in a situation like here.
Alexander Kiselev: So we are. Basically The basic connectors will be sitting in the same footprint where the pixels are.
Alexander Kiselev: So there there will be a very minimal amount of cross talk introduced by this ticket. So I think,
simona: okay, we have to move on. Thank you.
Junqi Xie: Okay. So i'm going to
Junqi Xie: uh present some uh results with the on the magnetic field testing of the Ilpv at the Argonne at the
Junqi Xie: So here basically a figure showing that to the Lpd it was a place to add to the uh argon G minus two, a solenoid, the magnet. So we received the three Ltvs and the two. We've got data uh for the script line ones, which is the twenty mic one and the ten micro one.
Junqi Xie: And uh, uh, we can a capacity for the but because the it regardless electronics have some issues. So we basically didn't know gets a uh data, and you know, magnetic field. The mainly for the strength strength for this uh magnets is um uh point to zero to test out to one for the four tests that the manage is the same as one, four, four, five tesla
Junqi Xie: uh as um as I t minus two uh calibration uh status. So we didn't uh change the magnets. Um uh um!
Junqi Xie: We didn't change the the the the the minutes um uh field that strength, and the the way we uh change the field on the Ltd. Is the pushing in and out over the magnet to get a different um uh strength,
Junqi Xie: and we use the top box to made by aluminum to cover the Lpd. And the laser is um fixed onto the top of the uh on the top of the cover, but in the cover, so that the position is fixed at the one place.
Junqi Xie: So we have also have a rotation uh, like mmm mechanism at the right side, as you can see, so the Lcp. Will be rotated along this line so that it can get us some kind of uh angle dependence measurements.
Junqi Xie: So for the um orientation of the magnets. So we use a small uh method to test that it's direction. So at the Argon the end direction is actually into the management. So that's basically
Junqi Xie: uh, more information here is uh showing the high voltage of the Uh high water connection of the Lpd. As recommended by income, and we use a small box to um
Junqi Xie: to make sure that the um the current can be uh deal can be loaded, and uh to to ensure uh the stable operation over the Ltv with the high voltages. So we use the five uh high voltage, your connections, and then um,
Junqi Xie: and and go inside of a two separate Mcp kind of circuits,
Junqi Xie: and here basically showing the uh signal that we get from from us the three-line Lpd and the um. The signal from the um we the second off from the also. Look, that's the uh. We'll phone pass in the Freddy. Uh
Junqi Xie: pretty good. And uh this the kind of was three-line Lpd: but the base uh marks the um uh comments that's actually the real form is better you know magnets compared to what we we get to answer the uh, what do we get to? Where there is no magnets uh uh
Junqi Xie: and uh, there's the lower, bigger, basically showing the rotation angle. That's the uh. We can um rotate the uh at a smaller angle, and when it's when when the angle is around the
Junqi Xie: uh around the the um, the normal angle and the getting bigger and bigger for the
Junqi Xie: we're getting bigger bigger steps. So when it's getting to be the larger to get a larger angle,
Junqi Xie: and here obviously the main result. So that's the uh we get from this to measurement. So the gain Um, So the the Ldb actually showing the uh actually shown the similar behavior trends as the Uh Rdmcbt with here, which we previously be there with the Argon six technique for one.
Junqi Xie: So the game uh here shows It's this stuff. It decrease as we increase the uh magnetic field, so you can see the game is around the uh two times ten to the seventh at the zero uh magnet, and the decrease to around the seven times ten to the fifth
Junqi Xie: around the points um uh point nine or around the one Tesla at around points uh uh seven. Tesla. It's around the one one time since the six for the for the um game,
Junqi Xie: and um, when the game is a decrease that we we can actually recover the game at. So the higher magnets that are increasing the Mcp. Uh what it is here basically showing when when is the when is that around the uh, one point five uh,
Junqi Xie: but and and here there are uh, several measurements around the one point, two Tesla and the one for the four Tesla. So basically we increase the high voltage to around the we increase the five, the M. Ct bias voltage from around eight hundred and seventy five was, which is the normal operation to around the one
Junqi Xie: one thousand nine hundred and seventy-five, and the one thousand one hundred. So the in that case we are able to operate as the Ltd. In your in on uh magnets around the one point um,
Junqi Xie: or on the one point, two to one for the for Kesla, the right of figure basically showing that we set that the Lpd at uh one from the for Tesla um magnets, and it starts with to increase the the uh
Junqi Xie: uh Mcd buys the voltage um gradually. So at the one thousand the volt. So we basically single ging around the um, one comes into the six and start to increase the being start to increase, as we several to increase the um
Junqi Xie: uh five voltage around the one hundred and thirty
Junqi Xie: uh high voltage. We were able to recover the game around the
Junqi Xie: one, two, three, four, five, six times ten to the six. So so basically it's It says that as the manager as a as a high man in the field, though uh, we were able to recover the gain to um ten to the six by significantly increase the Mcp voltages.
Junqi Xie: Uh, we are not sure if this operation is um go to for the um cid applications, and the Jerry always uh common to that. So it's uh M. Cps that they'll be operated. The acts uh lower
Junqi Xie: as a lower voltage at the lower gain to reduce the backcomes, and also some other issues with the with the
Junqi Xie: and I feel for the gain um versus the rotation angle. So we were able to locate the Ltd around the around the the normal direction. And here basically showing that the uh the game what they bought uh, we were able to see that the being actually decreased as the um
Junqi Xie: as an um lpd is rotated around the the normal direction. That's the We have seen that the a lot of times
Junqi Xie: uh due to the affection of the uh amplification inside of the magnet,
Junqi Xie: so that
Junqi Xie: so they mean this measurements the if we um the left. The figure shows that the is the middle strip only. But if you actually uh um combine all three steps which is next to each other, we were able to get the right. So
Junqi Xie: a figure. So the writer figure basically showed that the the um, the the final amplified. The electrons was moving around the the around, the the the the case in the script. So it's it's a way. So that's the normal position we've we've um met the
Junqi Xie: that's a lot the um the signal to be all selected by the central um central script and the as the as the angles moving from left to the right. So we were able to see that the um, the
Junqi Xie: the the final um,
Junqi Xie: the final amplified. The election class was moving um between two scripts,
Junqi Xie: and here is a um, a more detailed uh description of the hold on um for the electrons, the moving between the scripts. So
Junqi Xie: so uh, on the right, the top top right the figure. You can see that. Um This I clearly see, that the
Junqi Xie: the total charter was being uh shifted from one to to another. And uh, um!
Junqi Xie: And this is a a little bit uh um different from what we expected, because we expect that to the uh map, the the the electrons, the final electrons taken, or the move along the strips. But actually it's a most um um pending killer to the script
Junqi Xie: to the scripts. So that's a little bit of harder for us. But clearly here we show that the the the final uh electron is uh moving around the uh around the the scripts that maybe I uh uh further, maybe the further uh look uh,
Junqi Xie: But as at this, the the about to um the about to slide, the just showing the moving movements of the signal as a small angle and a small uh magnetic field is run on the one Tesla. We also see the similar uh behavior.
Junqi Xie: And then, uh, the signal is moving around the one St. You know, from one to to another, and then, and also for the
Junqi Xie: for the larger um magnetic field, the the angle dependence. Affection is much stronger, as you can see around the uh thirty degree it's already started to stop, and the smaller angle, if you're on the sixty degrees.
Junqi Xie: So that's basically the summary. So uh, we've tested the two script line. Lpd is the add, some uh argon t manage to management uh fertility, and this server as the baseline performance of the Lcd email with the field that.
Junqi Xie: So? The Ipb is basically showing the very similar behavior trends as the previous. The Rd. Uh. Ms. Cpmt:
Junqi Xie: And then the Ibd. Again decreased as a magnet figure increase, and the thing can be uh recovered by increase in the M. Cp. By the voltage of significance. So the signal cluster uh actually moved around the the um,
Junqi Xie: the uh ltpd sweep line and the B feel the directly changes in the future. Uh, we will uh further test the sound, but more advanced the an Ltp. Or as a in the early two thousand and twenty-three, so that's all. I have uh thank you for your attention.
simona: Thank you to in case we have five minutes for questions and comments
Alexander Kiselev: Uh, some of we are rising hands.
simona: Sorry
Alexander Kiselev: we are raising hands, so we will. It is the same uh the procedure like before. Just go ahead and jump on it. Okay. So so you're in March. You are going to verify that
Alexander Kiselev: the same compensation. Three will work at the substantial angles like ten, twenty, thirty degrees.
Junqi Xie: Oh, it will be a similar angle. Um,
Junqi Xie: here. So basically. You have a zero degree, two point five degree, five degree, and the seven point five and ten as then go to fifteen, twenty, twenty-five is thirty, and forty, five forty five, uh sixty and ninety.
Junqi Xie: That's Basically, the step we have.
Alexander Kiselev: So so other plans to verify that this type of compensation recovers the timing resolution performance as well.
Junqi Xie: So this is. We should have the timing information here actually, in this measurements already. But we don't have a time to mer to truly look at the data. Yet. So this,
Alexander Kiselev: the the the the the that I was taken. But to the data, with the not analysis for the timing, the resolution here,
Junqi Xie: these are all done in the script line. Ilpd is, I think, the um
Junqi Xie: the hrtp. You should be more interested for us to do the
Junqi Xie: this is the straight line. Um! This is the skip line uh without the board, so there is no competitive couple at all, and the one we get one capacity Couple of the Ltd.
Junqi Xie: Number one hundred and twenty-six. By the way, we bring the Lp. Into the Magnets the there is some issue with the board, and we didn't get anything.
Thank you.
Matthew Malek: So this is, if I may ask a question. This is a very nice study, and, in fact, I the question of how the tiles perform in a magnetic field is something I've been wondering about for uh, quite a long time several years, so it's nice to see uh an answer. Um! But
Matthew Malek: what i'm curious about is I I quite like your plot. I forget the number showing that the the raised voltage will compensate for even up to two. Tesla. There we go. Yes, slide six
Matthew Malek: uh. My question is really uh, if you were going to run for an extended period of time uh, what's the what's the cost to wear and tear on the tile for running at the uh enhanced voltage for extended periods?
Junqi Xie: If you're um,
Junqi Xie: that that's the question I always have as well. So should we
Junqi Xie: really, uh applied the have very high voltage to this, to such high to compensate for the team loss. Um, because basically it's It's a trans that if you increase the high voltage of the
Junqi Xie: uh at high, and then the the the Lpd should all. So that all the M. Cdm. Is should be able to operate in much higher magnet field that
Junqi Xie: the the issue will be. We are this um kind of operation that increase the high voltage
Junqi Xie: uh affect the the the, the the lifetime of it, and also the the that counts of this as well. This we we were never a mirror. Actually,
Matthew Malek: that's that's another good point that I wasn't thinking about. Yes, that's true at the dark rate as well.
Junqi Xie: You can have a noise and stuff with this at some point
Jerry Vavra: which you don't necessarily
Jerry Vavra: determine, based on one single test. Do you have to run through many tubes to get a feel for this, whether you you are really able to run at these elevated voltages. And, as I said, my experience is that the answer is no on planet planet on troops.
Alexander Kiselev: Jerry. What is exactly the mechanism of why this can fail. So if you only change the Ev on the Ncp. Is nothing else
Jerry Vavra: uh the gain by tune of the the
Jerry Vavra: but i'm just reporting my uh my experience that uh, I develop a field that you don't want to run high gain
Jerry Vavra: uh with large number of Mcps, you know we can get by with one single and Cp. And make a paper, but once you have many and large system, Then that's the question you will have to answer.
Alexander Kiselev: Oh, no, we're We're also coming to realization that the pre amplifiers are absolutely needed for for this to
Alexander Kiselev: to to to run them at relaxed settings.
Jerry Vavra: Yeah. So essentially, all i'm saying is that you will have to develop that feel yourself
Jerry Vavra: or no, I should not say feel It's an experience. Basically And then you can say, okay, I can run at these increased voltages because of this?
Alexander Kiselev: Yes, but as long as you only partly recover the actual game with raising this voltage, so what would be the mechanism, the actual mechanism which contributes to to the aging on things like that. It could be a light emission from uh
Jerry Vavra: uh feel. Maybe Albert Lemon has a comment because he has observed similar things.
craig: Uh well, I I know it in photo multipliers. The the the diner gets the sensitized right, and they uh so it with high currents. You can actually damage them. So uh it is. Still. It's a photo missive surface, so it may be something like
Alexander Kiselev: at the surface of the S. But there is no higher current, so the current will be the same, because it's kind of what is it?
Alexander Kiselev: Well, you mean currently, you're they're getting hard. It It it. It could be some sort of hot spot with which is creating. Uh, you know Ions coming back.
Jerry Vavra: We create secondary electrons, and it's kind of keep going on, and the the tube is unstable. It It was actually interesting to learn that you were running at the end with a hundred times of amplification. One hundred and forty times amplification. That was basically, initially, I started with ten, you know, thinking
Jerry Vavra: because I didn't know
Jerry Vavra: which had a large number of pixels.
Jerry Vavra: We have to run with high gain, and so
that's what we did. We had our home amplifier.
Jerry Vavra: Initially it started as forty, but then we added another five to three.
Jerry Vavra: So total gain uh electronics Gain was one hundred and forty,
Jerry Vavra: and and Cp. Was running at few times ten to the five.
Alexander Kiselev: It is also about minimizing the extracted church.
Alexander Kiselev: So if there are limitations on that side as well
M. Popecki: uh mark, but Picky here. So one thing we noticed in the magnetic field is that the dark rates actually were quite low.
M. Popecki: Um, Another comment is, when you get over to a steep angle at Jin, she showed that When we get to the one Tesla, the
M. Popecki: uh gain falls off beyond, say thirty degrees, plus minus thirty degrees, but you can still recover it again, using the same method of increasing the Mtp. Voltage, if you like. Yeah, even to say twenty, six, or five E. Five,
M. Popecki: so that you still have some headroom there. The whole structure of the La Pd. Is actually good to something like one thousand two hundred and fifty volts per Mcp. Or more. Um, because when we first started making them, we had to use aluminum oxide, which is a very poor gain. And so the structure was built for that
M. Popecki: um. And then The final comment I just wanted to make was about the uh
M. Popecki: capacity couple of devices. So
M. Popecki: you we probably remember from there earlier discussions there
M. Popecki: the standard signal board that we ship the devices with
M. Popecki: is picking up signals, not only capacitively, but also inductively, because we have transformers all over the back,
M. Popecki: and my suspicion is that this transformers were sort of frozen. The
M. Popecki: domains are sort of frozen in place by the magnetic field of the solenoid here. So we're going to go back again with a capacitively couple of device with a single board with no transformers on the back.
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): Do we have information about
M. Popecki: the overall efficiency?
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): Yes, because at the end the makeup is the same.
M. Popecki: I guess we could tell.
M. Popecki: So I should do this with the data analysis. I guess we could tell
M. Popecki: from the uh, the number of times we fire the laser to the number of responses that we see. That would tell us if our efficiency is changing.
Matthew Malek: The question is to me, um that builds off of the of the last question is, if you raise the magnetic field of the dark rate drops. But then you do what? Um what's shown here? You raise the um the voltage to compensate for it. Does your dark rate go back up or not?
M. Popecki: Yeah, we we were uh didn't pay a lot of attention to dark rates. I'm sorry to say we've all we'll focus on that more uh when we go back in uh January. But um!
M. Popecki: The The dark rates would go up somewhat, but still it's pretty quiet. It's unusually quiet when you have the magnetic field there. Now, if you take away the magnetic field and leave the Mcp voltage high, of course the dark rates will return to a very high value, but the devices are actually quite well behaved in that strong magnetic field.
M. Popecki: And and so I think um
M. Popecki: to get to Sylvia's question. Maybe we should look at the response to the laser as a function of the magnetic field strength to get a kind of a course estimate of
M. Popecki: whether the detection efficiency is changing. My sense is that it didn't change did not change. But we should do that quantitatively.
Bernhard: Mark a quick suggestion. If you want to use an inside out port without transformers in the magnetic field. Why, don't you use the Lamborghini board?
M. Popecki: Um, we could um,
M. Popecki: I think we can.
M. Popecki: We had one. What I was thinking of with the Uh Singer board was. We had a board made with an spi that we did with nailu,
M. Popecki: and it has these various size pixel arrays on the on the rear side,
M. Popecki: and then uh these little plugin boards uh similar to what Alexander was showing as a concept for the Hrpd,
M. Popecki: and that one does a reasonable job at transferring signals. And so uh, that would be sort of the simple way to do it without having to bring power into the Uh board where it sits in the magnetic field. So that was my first option.
simona: Okay, we we have to move on. Sorry
simona: we can reach out more questions and comments for the end, I guess,
simona: or put them in the chat. Um, okay,
simona: or you can continue commenting the while. I'm trying to show my screen.
simona: Okay, you guys see my type of slide.
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): Yes, we see Simona
simona: all right. Um.
simona: So um I got to, as they have the funding in for Lep City study. The idea was the Us. Income to micro new Ipd uh, with the quantum efficiency and uniform gain across the country area,
simona: and the smaller distance between the last uh Mtp. And Annot, going from six point six kilometers to three
simona: Uh. And this L. I. Pd. I will have uh rented it for a year, and it have been subjected to this I had in mind.
simona: Um. So the idea of having a smaller gap between the Mt. Two, and the Annot was to reduce the basically the size of the charge cloud at the analog, and also hopefully to make it more registered to the to magnetic field.
simona: Um, mostly, but they like I would have characterized the La Pcd. Just like it. It would look in um in comedy, for in terms of them, but with voltage cuts, and that's right.
simona: And then, uh, I was planning to measure the just cloud radius, and uh, also investigate. If we see gain variation because of for shedding
simona: um. Then my plan was to do um. That would cost me price and heavy gas for a face, but i'll try to catch a light from you on
simona: the League. Time, for the delivery of the was like uh three to four months, so I should have gotten it um at the earlier some time at the end of February. I do not have it yet, but the income um
simona: um, I guess so. Come up with a proof of principle for what I had in mind, so as of now I do not have the new Ipc. But I've been starting my test on.
simona: Uh so um, i'll be showing single photo later on uh detection results, and trying to make um very small volumes for Lindy Light to move out, measuring the charge. Cloud radius. Um, You see, these are some pictures of my setup with L. A. Pd. Seventy eight
simona: um get to the left top, you see like if it is seventy-eight, we can all made the collimation mask um on the face on this mask. I do basically the isolation. Uh we have like a one by one in should it out board installation.
simona: Um, the black blob that is, some form that has the led stuff in it, and underneath that there is a two millimeter hall uh that the led line goes through uh to shine on the face of the Pm. Team. I've been using this amplifier
simona: uh with gain versus frequency, you see to the right, because, uh, recommended by mark
simona: uh i'm using the the uh the pulse, the the part coming from a pass that drive the led it also the figure for the data acquisition system. And here to the left bottom, you see, uh, on the so basically uh,
simona: the three, the past. The driver's already in green, which is also the trigger, and then the Ip fifty, five,
simona: and uh these vertical lines that represent the sampling window for the digitizer. I'm. Using in this case the to fifty, which yes, that's not sample fast enough um for an L I. Pdf. But i'm. Touching the L. I. Pd. To a very long table a hundred meter long, so I get three to
simona: It is a for example,
simona: out of it,
simona: and to the right to see um, I might see uh the it set up. There are several right there. One of them has a to fifty uh in it, and then family modes.
simona: So um! The idea for the single photo is run. Detection was to take a fixed number of triggers per led voltage settings uh as means of um uh varying the probability of producing a single quarter. Electrons
simona: uh each of them has a different um voltage, meaning uh a different influx of photons shining of the on the face of the L. I. Pd. Um and I'm. Always collecting a fixed number of regards that distribution.
simona: So you see the progression of uh the
simona: predominantly more than one for the electron out of of the La Pd. And you see this last spectrum here in uh in
simona: um.
simona: So like I was saying, i'm using um a format for nanoseconds every four nanoseconds sampler that's eighty to fifty uh to uh to the right top. Uh you basically see the four nanoseconds sample from the
simona: uh with the in the center of the uh sampling window uh to the bottom. You see um, how I define a p in this um sampling window? So um this I Dc. Uh dynamical range is the one volt, meaning um
simona: about point two, four, four millivolts that channel um i'm setting thresholds uh for the to be like twenty channels about the pedestal. Uh once the sample cross is the threshold,
simona: the feathers that is calculated as the average over the for sample preceding the sample that pass the threshold, and then the pulse is defined as a certain number of samples, which is my choice. Uh, from the point where the, for example, pass the threshold. So I trust many examples. So that's what you see at the bottom in the blue.
simona: So I tried the variety of uh Mtp. Voltages, and for the pack of voltages since i'm showing here nine hundred goals on the Mtc. And fifty volts on the photo to the left, nine, fifteen, and fifty to the right.
simona: In all cases I could very clearly see the single photo electronic view front. Here is eight seventy-five um on Mtp. And one hundred and thirty on the potatoes, and then to the to the left and to the right it takes seventy-five and one hundred and sixty.
simona: Um uh you'll see There, there are distributions where you clearly see the one and two for the electrons.
simona: Um, I don't have. So uh, this is not really appropriate for these distributions. I have to make out the convolution, and there and I have. Um.
simona: I have a I guess the M. I. Pmt. Response function that has worked in the past for me to feed single for the electron data from A. I haven't tried it yet on the La Pcd. But that's the plan, for now i'm just uh feeding just to provide a sort of uh
simona: uh to guide the I to see what the single cause like trumpet. Basically
simona: So the idea was to to do this and then
simona: use it. Um, one of these um uh voltage for Mtp. And the photo patterns settings to look at um to look into measuring the Trust Clouds radius. And that's what i'm at right now. So I pick to the eight seventy-five Mp. Voltage I one sixty ball
simona: on the between uh on the photo and uh, I went down to a one millimeter um Pollution hall in the mask of the L. I. Pd. Um.
simona: So when I do that, I get the distribution to the to the left, at the top is the charge integral calculated, as I was explaining earlier, and at the bottom is a rough estimate of the amplitude. Um
simona: and uh, I. So that's where I'm at. Basically, the idea would be to uh the the one millimeter a whole that led light goes through It's placed at the center of the so called pixel,
simona: and then I ch. I. Then I check If there is any significant charge um collected on that, Jason. Six thousand. That's not so. This basically says needed them
simona: Uh: the charge of cloud is contained within within this pixel uh the time looking at when I placed um a collimation hall right right at the center of the pixel
simona: uh the idea would be to move this uh one millimeter collimation. Hold out the edge of the pixel and see when um,
simona: thirty percent, Roughly, thirty percent of the of the charge is collected by that Json itself. So then I would call the distance between um that particular uh collimation, whole location and the edge of the pixel uh, roughly the the radius of the charge Cloud.
simona: Um! So uh what's coming up? Um, It's basically optimization for the for this set up to measure the charge log gradient uh so that it the one millimeter um uh size for the collaboration. How? What?
simona: Chosen based on the four size, And then um,
simona: I get a desire of uh heating just one, for in the first Mp. Uh with them uh with the photon. So
simona: but there may be um uh, there may be some uncertainty coming from that, so I don't think I can make a smaller uh pollution hold, but I can um. I can make it slightly larger and see what happens for the results to change. So that's what I mean by optimization. Uh, Also, the idea was to uh
simona: have to try to overlap two of these charts uh clouds once. I know their size and see if there is any game variation before sharing
simona: to discuss that. Digitize that for the bench that's at least I don't. I can actually it in Dean, and the right I would have with them that I can use on the bench to prostate their results. That
simona: um! And then, like I was saying, but for my um a of them. Uh,
simona: I guess single photo like one remote. I for the electron distributions to extract characteristics of the single photo electron response of the Ipd using this Um, uh, I guess at Hope for L. A. Pd. Response function i'm giving out about them, or an example of how it looks like when I
simona: that's well known. Uh, then, um! So this would happen with electricity. Thirty-eight because I don't have the new one. I would we do all this, and uh
simona: then proceed with the uh test. It cost me grace, and hopefully installing them. When I think i'm ready, and I understand the new device, and there is also an opportunity to do magnetic measurements with the Po to at jailab to be preferred. Um, in case the solid that's funded and runs,
simona: it becomes the project.
simona: So um, you know, to has up to one point four eight. That's not uniform field at the at the center of the board and there is Um. There is an opportunity to do this test.
craig: Hello,
Okay,
craig: Can you see my hand?
simona: Um. I have to exceed this one. Yeah, go ahead.
craig: Okay. So So yeah, I'm a little surprised. If you go back to your slide the six or so
craig: Mhm
craig: you, you you say you're seeing single photoelectron distribution. Uh, and you say, Well, here's the second, and so forth. I I I don't see that so clearly there, and i'm wondering why Why is this single for the life conversation so bad? Then, because you like in a S. I. Pm. You would see
craig: one, two, three, very clearly, and if you're taking one photoelectron and amplifying it
craig: ten to the sixth, or something like that, you should get very good statistics. It should be very narrow, but
craig: and you would get the you would see these peaks, and it also doesn't sort of look like a poisson distribution of with the mean of you know much less than one. And I mean, that's what I was saying basically that I would have to use
simona: uh this kind of feeding procedure and see uh, like in Here you see a similar response from an Mi Pmt from Hamamatu and a single photo electron. It's what you see in blue. Basically Um. But The thing that's the thing that bothers me is that you make this whole
craig: very small, but at the level of the size of the poor or the whole that the poorest, the photon density is still very high, so you still have. You could have many photons over this one millimeter whole. The density of photons over one millimeters could be the same as it is over
craig: five millimeters or less so. Why, don't you just put a neutral density filter in and attenuate the flux down over the size of the whole, and you could you could. Then you could see the photons get down to where it's. Clearly you should get a press along with the mean of less than one, and then you see one and two, and so forth.
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): Uh, if I can,
craig: I don't know if you have
craig: much, much less than one, and then you can go up and you see one, and then you see two, and so forth, So it's to do with just by reducing the area. The flex of photons over one one millimeter, with a ten micron or twenty micron, or is the same as it is over over five millimeters,
Jerry Vavra: I would make a comment. That's exactly what I used to do. Just using a filters.
Jerry Vavra: You can actually use my lot of filters, and you know it doesn't have to be
zihlmann beni: expensive. But here here the photon intensity is driven by the voltage on the led, and it it leads almost to the same result. Yeah, you don't know how many photons. The only d you can can be reducing many photons. You don't know that you only have one.
simona: There is a there is confusion here. I'm not claiming. I'm making one put on out of the led. I'm just saying i'm extracting one photoelectron out of the
simona: number of three that i'm making two, three God uh photoelectron, one for the photo, then I slightly body the voltage of the led, meaning that i'm making a a few more photons. So i'm increasing. Then the probability of producing more triggers with one photo electron out of the photocath. That's how you see this progression of the charge integral distribution picking at the same location. But you see that the pedestal events now move into this
simona: distribution that I call a predominantly single port electron distribution from the photo patterns. And then you see, in this case
simona: basically the one and the two. And of course there is a three and the four, if I would do a proper feat with the L. I. Pd. Response function. So whether you attenuate or you change the voltage on the led to value the number of four tones.
simona: Uh, I think it the same result.
craig: It's it, I mean
zihlmann beni: it. It's you. You're just sort of assuming you change the voltage on the led, and you get more single photons that way. But you could get more multi photons to it. That's a misunderstanding. What she said. What she said is when she increases the voltage on the led. The number of photons that get produced in the led will increase, however, because of quantum efficiency of the photocatter, and whatever
zihlmann beni: you still only detect
zihlmann beni: at most one.
zihlmann beni: No, no, not necessarily. But I mean, how differently would you do that? I mean? If the peak moves, then you show immediately, and that's what she says. Sure, if your peak moves, then you have more than one, but the peak does not move
Vincenzo Vagnoni: so, but I mean it in the end. Using the the voltage over the led is a totally equivalent, and using filters. I mean It's a There's no difference,
Vincenzo Vagnoni: then. The The reason why you cannot see this in peaks is just because the the distribution is much wider with this, but with a silicon. Pm: So so Oh, yes, yes. Well, that's That's That's normal.
zihlmann beni: Okay. It's like a normal Pmt: If you would use a normal Pmt: you would see exactly the same thing.
simona: Yeah, I said, I did use um my Pmp. From, and I so exactly the same thing. It's actually published in June,
simona: my result of last year.
simona: Okay, Thank you. Thank you for your comments. We have to move on. Uh: I don't want to be over time. I don't want to give my third special treatment in any way. Um. So I stopped sharing. And um
simona: Oh, Amanda, please go ahead.
Amanda Weinstein: Okay, Thank you. Can you hear me? Uh, yeah,
Amanda Weinstein: Great,
Amanda Weinstein: Can everyone see my thoughts? Oh, yeah, I can see your thing fantastic. So I was asked to give the latest news from the Annie experiment,
Amanda Weinstein: and Annie is short for the accelerator, neutrino, neutron interaction experiment uh, it's a neutrino experiment deployed on the formula booster neutrino beam,
Amanda Weinstein: and the Physics School of Anni is to measure final State neutron you from neutrino nucleus interactions. But Annie also acts as an R. And D platform for new neutrino detection technologies and techniques,
Amanda Weinstein: and in particular, our focus is in two main areas, fast photo sensors in particular, La Pd. La Pds and new detection media at uh, such as gadolinium workloaded water, which is what we're using right now, and water-based liquid scintillator. We're an international collaboration of about forty five people
Amanda Weinstein: from five different countries.
Amanda Weinstein: So the adding detector is shown on the right of the slide, and it consists of a steel tank that holds twenty-six tons of catalin and loaded water, and the active volume is instrumented with one hundred and thirty-two pmps, ranging from eight to eleven inches in size,
Amanda Weinstein: and initially uh five, ten, one la Ppds, which are arranged downstream of the beam line in an X configuration. Uh, we also have a front mutant vit new on veto, which is simply a couple of overlapping layers of scintillated
Amanda Weinstein: scintillator paddles. Excuse me, and these are there simply to reject uh nuance that don't in originate from neutrinos actually interacting in the volume of the tank
Amanda Weinstein: and um,
Amanda Weinstein: The other key elements that I want to not mention. Here is the Me. On range detector uh, which is an iron absorber and scintillator switch that provides us with our me on identification and detection.
Amanda Weinstein: The La Pds, as you can see in the bottom image. Uh, unfortunately, my mouse is not working for pointing so hopefully you can see it without me. Guiding
Amanda Weinstein: is um
Amanda Weinstein: mounted. The Lhpds are mounted on support boards that are then slid on rails in between the pmt's, which you can also see mounted on the iron support structure. The steel support structure that that girds the outside of the tank,
Amanda Weinstein: so I will cut to the chase the the single biggest piece of news that I have that is new since we last gave a presentation back in March, two thousand and twenty-two at at this meeting is that we have deployed our first Lap, Pd. So called L. A Pd. Number forty
Amanda Weinstein: Um. You can see the Q. A. Scan on the left hand side for L. A. Pd. Forty, which was done some time ago, and on the right you can see a top down view of L. A. Pd. Forty on its support
Amanda Weinstein: uh structure, being maneuvered into place in one of the slots in the top of the tank.
Amanda Weinstein: Now this L. A. Ppd. Was deployed a few weeks after We give our presentation at this meeting, and March twenty ninth of two thousand and twenty-two, and it's been continuously underwater since that day. It's been operating stably
Amanda Weinstein: uh the slow controls. Monitoring shows us that the humidity, temperature and voltage fall remains within specifications throughout that time. And when we had being, we have been taking data with the
Amanda Weinstein: Uh when we did the mounting. Uh, because position, reconstruction for us is crucial in Annie. Uh. We, of course measured the position of the L. A. Pd. On the mounting board to a sub centimeter level, and you can see on the right um in much more detail what that mounting board and the lapd on it look like,
Amanda Weinstein: and you can see that the La Pd. Is inside of productive housing. Uh since we operated underwater, and neither water or nor gadolini and loaded water is friendly to the lapd. It's inside a Ppc. Housing with a clear acrylic window and a metal back date,
Amanda Weinstein: and both the La. Pd. And the the readout electronics are packaged in that water type container. Uh the white are the signal cables coming out of the device and the housing.
Amanda Weinstein: So this is the first L. A Pd. That has ever been deployed underwater, and it's the first La Pd. Deployed in our running high energy Physics experiment Uh, this is a huge milestone for us, and we're really really excited
Amanda Weinstein: before I go on to show you a couple of plots from the data from this first. L. A. Pd. I wanted to give you a little bit more context on the readout electronics and the entire setup that we have uh for the lapd, and how it interfaces to the rest of the experiment.
Amanda Weinstein: So Annie has a central clock that is, one hundred and twenty-five Megahertz and Annie also receives information uh from the formula beam from the booster neutrino beam. Uh, and we have electronics that then uh provide both that clock
Amanda Weinstein: and information about the beam still star to the lap Pd. Electronics, and in particular, the piece of equipment that receives this information is the any central card, and this is the custom card that's designed to operate in tandem with the Psic electronics, The Ac Bc. Cards that digitize the L. I. Pd. Signal center, mounted on the lap Pd. On the bottom
Amanda Weinstein: Um. The acc takes that one hundred and twenty-five Megahertz clock. It latches its own internal forty megahertz clock to that central clock via a face locked loop
Amanda Weinstein: and it also. Uh, and it reprocesses that information about the beams still start, and both of those are then distributed down through the waterproof cables into the take to the Ac Dc. Cards. Those same cables receive data back from the Ac. Dcs. As well.
Amanda Weinstein: There's also a surface breakout box that handles the slow control. So trigger configuration, environmental monitoring and power distribution. All of that.
Amanda Weinstein: We've seen the Lapd deployment package Uh, we have the L. A. Pd. Itself,
Amanda Weinstein: and we have the readout electronics and an auxiliary board that manages the power distribution.
Amanda Weinstein: Um for both the how it it so it that contains the high voltage power supply. Um, and as much of the low voltage power management as we could move off of the readout cards.
Amanda Weinstein: Um! And and there is a reason for this. So, as I said before, because we're operating under water. We need to operate inside of protective housing.
Amanda Weinstein: On the other hand, it's desirable for us to mount the read at electronics directly on the La Pd. And, in fact, uh, we have. We replace the income back plane with a custom analog pickup board of our own, and the read out cards are mounted on that back plan. Um.
Amanda Weinstein: So that allows us to minimize latency. It allows us to
Amanda Weinstein: also minimize the number of cables that we have to pull out of the housing. Um, because we're only sending up the digital summary of what's already been read out. We don't have to send up cables to handle each channel independently. Um, which also minimizes our leak risk.
Amanda Weinstein: However,
Amanda Weinstein: it comes at a price because we have to put all of this into a small housing, and that means that thermal issues from
Amanda Weinstein: generated from the readout electronics. Because we're generating a fair amount of heat and noise become more of an issue for for us in that confined space.
Amanda Weinstein: In particular, we're worried about affecting the indium seal of the lapd, or having hotspots underneath the lapd.
Amanda Weinstein: Um.
Amanda Weinstein: So what we do is we, by moving all of the power that we could off of three dot electronics and keeping it on an auxiliary board. We protect the La Pd. As much as possible, and we did require several iterations
Amanda Weinstein: of that scenario before we got to the the perfect spot that allowed us to operate comfortably at a good temperature inside the housing.
Amanda Weinstein: So the two Ac Dc. Boards instrument the back of the the lap. Pd. As I said, these uh contain the psect tips that capture signals from both sides of each strip line and digitize them at ten giga samples per second um for each riploid for each side of each supply, and we have a twenty five nanosecond buffer
Amanda Weinstein: uh the L. A. Ppd. Triggers asynchronously within a twenty microsecond programmable being window that starts um at when the
Amanda Weinstein: package in the water receives the beam still starts signal.
Amanda Weinstein: Right now we have an external trigger card that replaces the onboard triggering of the Ac Dc. Cards for this iteration.
Amanda Weinstein: Uh the forty of my reference clock is multiplied up times eight to give us three nanosecond time champing of both the beam window start and the trigger arrival. We can improve on this by fitting the analog signals uh captured by the psect chips to extend an exact time within the clock. Forty Megahertz clock cycle
Amanda Weinstein: Uh. This is highlighted in red, because that is still a work in progress.
Amanda Weinstein: So here is the other money plot Uh: this shows uh the time between the beam spills start as received uh by the lapd package in the water, and
Amanda Weinstein: the trigger signal
Amanda Weinstein: that is produced by the auxiliary trigger card on the lapd, so the lapd is self triggering as long as the beam window is live, and what you can see is that there's an excess above background which are the lapd triggered events that are in time with the booster neutrino being
Amanda Weinstein: it has a width of one point, six microseconds, which is exactly what we would expect for a booster neutrino be be beam spill. That is the width of the beam spill.
Amanda Weinstein: Uh, I have kept the full twenty microsecond windows so that you could see the level of the background. But I should note that we have looked at this, matching it to the rest of the information from the any detector, and requiring a single trap from the Mu on range detector is enough to effectively eliminate that background stress that you see around the beam spill peak.
Amanda Weinstein: So this is another rules: first, because we have the first neutrinos observed, ever with an L. A. Pd. On this slide. So this was extremely for excite citing for us the day that we actually got to see this,
Amanda Weinstein: and just to convince you that we know what we're doing. Um! Here's another plot that just shows uh an alternate view of the same data. So this shows you the distribution of strip multiplicity, the number of L. A. Pd. Scripts, and an events with pulses above some threshold. Um, for
Amanda Weinstein: both the off scheme data in blue and the in time data with the be in red. And you can see that these distributions are different, and the excess that you see uh beyond the blue in the red distribution. Those are expected to be the neutrino events.
Amanda Weinstein: So, in order to get to the new news first, I alighted a little bit over the characterization and integration testing that we do um. But to reassure you that we've done due diligence. I wanted to show that here
Amanda Weinstein: all of our characterization and integration. Testing for the lapds is done in a dedicated dark box facility at Fermi lab Um, where we have a scanning motor stage with the pi last laser mounted on it thirty pic a second post laser,
Amanda Weinstein: and we can use that to characterize the gain of the system. The timing of the system, and also the quantum efficiency of the La Pds. Um. We have done initial tests on all of the five lapds that will go into the system
Amanda Weinstein: for characterization, and we're repeating those as part of our integration, testing now to the other four lapds that still need to go into the water. All of them do meet any requirements. And but the full integration testing allows us to test all of the deployable electronics
Amanda Weinstein: and the data acquisition system as well.
Amanda Weinstein: So we're in the process of of testing and deploying for more. La. These in two sets of two, so unlike the first L. A. Pd. Which was deployed on its own. We're going to have to mount the next two pairs up on the same support structure together
Amanda Weinstein: and deploy each of them in in a column of two lapds. Um! What I've shown here on this slide are um hot off the press characterization plots for the next lap Pd. In in the sequence. La Ppd: sixty, four, and what you can see is that there is significant variability.
Amanda Weinstein: Uh la P Pd. Forty, The one that is in any right now. Um has relatively low gain for the set of five. Um! It's around ten to the sixth um. It was a few times ten to the six that we push the voltage settings
Amanda Weinstein: uh at the conservative settings that we're operating at right. Now we believe it's it's closer to ten to the six. While at this L. A. Pd. Has a mean gain of about one point seven times ten to the seventh. The transit time spread. Uh, with All of the electronics
Amanda Weinstein: right now is around one hundred and twenty pic a second. Uh, we think we can improve on this. It looks like we're getting a small secondary peak that may be due to reflections. And we're in investigating that right now.
Amanda Weinstein: So what have we learned from this entire process? Uh, it certainly became true that for our use case, or for anyone who hopes to deploy lapds in a confined space and a protective housing
Amanda Weinstein: underwater uh keeping noise and heat sources as far away from the La Pd as you can this essential and that needs to be factored into your electronics design. So power management belongs on an auxiliary board. Not it. And as much of that as you can should be removed from the lap. Pd. Mounted, read out,
Amanda Weinstein: uh,
Amanda Weinstein: and you also have to be very careful. Um, with your grounding scheme when you are routing everything down seven to ten meter cables. Uh, we also find
Amanda Weinstein: the gain and optimal Hd. Settings and micro Channel plate. Resistances are still varying for our set of five lapds significantly between them, and that does present some challenges for us right now. Um!
Amanda Weinstein: We only really had room on on auxiliary slow controls board for one power supply for high voltage, and that meant we use the resistive divider network with potentiometer resistors to
Amanda Weinstein: divide that down, to get exactly the right voltages. Um for each of the micro channel plates in the photo capital for the L. A. Pd.
Amanda Weinstein: Um.
Amanda Weinstein: It would be ideal if we could have a design that independently controls those settings for different Lapd layers because we did run into some limitations because of this, but it's very difficult to do with a limited real estate, and we're still thinking of creative solutions for the next generation
Amanda Weinstein: of this hockey salary board that would allow us to do it.
Amanda Weinstein: Um! The other thing that we find, because, of course, we had this auxiliary trigger card we needed to install. And because we're using a custom back plane is that changes to those electronics elements currently require opening. The L. A. Pdf. Frame
Amanda Weinstein: um developing a generic design, and I believe, Matt, what he made this seem clear when he gave his presentation back in March two thousand and twenty-two, a generic design that limits the need for having to open the frame over and over again
Amanda Weinstein: is desirable, particularly if you're scaling to large experiments. You want to be able to ship these boards, have them installed, and then work with them already set up for your use case in your electronics.
Amanda Weinstein: So, agreeing on a design that everybody can design to for the back plane would be very, very helpful.
Amanda Weinstein: And the other comment I want to make is that work on photon disambiguation in a Gen. One La Pd. With strip lines
Amanda Weinstein: it for us in a realistic multi pe scenario. We're looking at real data in the water with real electronics with all of the the problems that go along with that that is ongoing um. We had already had proof of principle for this in idealized Monte Carlo,
Amanda Weinstein: and we're now wrestling with what that looks like when you add extra noise into your data and other features that are coming from elsewhere in your detector. So please stay tuned uh you'll hear from us hopefully, shortly on that.
simona: Oh, thank you.
simona: Sorry uh yeah, we are over time. Um: I was Yeah, I have a test to keep the time so much as I hate it. So
simona: uh, we have five minutes for discussion.
Alexander Kiselev: Oh, thank you. I'm on the I I raised my time. So think I'm under It's It's very interesting to see that you guys are really far ahead of all of us in terms of the practical deployment. I thought I had a simple question. So you mentioned twenty percent of Qe as you measured during the Qa process.
Alexander Kiselev: So the
Amanda Weinstein: Yes, so it varies from L. I. Pd. To L. I. Pd. The first few that we got. I think we're closer to ten percent, and the more recent ones got close. Twenty percent is a rough number. I think it rang from somewhere around eighteen to twenty. Something
Amanda Weinstein: I don't remember the exact numbers for each L. A. Pd. Off the top of my head, but they were all in that ballpark. But my my question is, are you measuring Qe or the actual Pd:
Alexander Kiselev: So are you measuring the photocat of current or the signals for the whole stack? And at which wavelength, By the way,
Amanda Weinstein: that's a good question. Those measurements actually predated. Um, me working on this aspect of the experiment. Uh, and I don't
Amanda Weinstein: no answer off the top of my head. I would have to look that up for you to get back to me. I I think I can answer,
Bernhard: Yeah.
Alexander Kiselev: So the of of how much is lost uh in this tech.
Bernhard: No, at least not during the time that I was supporting it. I mean I've been out of this for about a year now, because i'm in Germany. Um! But during the time that I was um there it to my knowledge, it was just the
Bernhard: uh for the current measurements. Okay, we're setting up for measurements for, uh, you know, measuring events. But uh, that was later.
Amanda Weinstein: It was
Bernhard: in the
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): single wavelength. So it's really a a spectrum versus wavelength of what? Okay? Thank you very much.
Amanda Weinstein: Yeah, that's what it was this you were using the same laser as we use for everything else, right? So it's it's
Bernhard: we're using an lid. Of course not a laser.
Amanda Weinstein: Okay,
Amanda Weinstein: Okay. So you use. So you were. Do you remember? Which led you were using
Bernhard: need to check with the guys in the lab.
cole hamel: Yeah. And an important thing to realize is that a lot of uh, you know, Annie has deployed Lepd forty. We're making lapd one hundred and forty-eight this week.
cole hamel: Um, so our quantum efficiency average is steadily increased since the first L. A. Pd. We sent to Annie uh, to now. So that's one of the reasons for the discrepancy between twenty percent average. And what we claim is thirty percent average. Now,
Amanda Weinstein: yeah, in fact, was not the oldest lap Pd. We received, but it was the first La Ppd we received. That was in Spec:
Amanda Weinstein: So
simona: okay, um, we have to move on. Um, Thanks to Amanda.
simona: Please go ahead and share your slide.
Rachel Montgomery: Hi, Larry, Can you hear me? Okay,
Rachel Montgomery: Okay. And can you see this fill screen?
Rachel Montgomery: Okay, Great um. So
Rachel Montgomery: i'm gonna discuss the lap Pd activities at Glasgow. So this is really on behalf of Frank Thompson and Bjorn, who I've seen in, participants. So if I get something wrong, please correct me.
Rachel Montgomery: Um. So at Glasgow we have this L. A. Pd. One hundred and twenty from income, so you can see a picture of it here installed in a black box uh which we use for testing. You can see xy uh scanners with the laser mounted here
Rachel Montgomery: mit c.
Rachel Montgomery: So an update is that the Magic Box has been constructed as per guidance for ground reference to Hv. Supplies, and these are the details on that here one
Rachel Montgomery: um. So first measurements the for these measurements you can see a trace on the celescope here, and so the voltages were slowly increased until the dark counts were observed, and and these are the settings that we use for data taking. So we have the Mcp and the Photo Castle voltages,
Rachel Montgomery: and and then a series of these past and shape pulses were seen. So here you can see the single a single photo electron level pulse, and you you possibly can't see it. The the Why scales two milligles per division, and we have one nanoseconds per division on the time scale
Rachel Montgomery: um, and then to further quantify the the dark times uh the the devices coupled to a C in a way form sampling digitizer uh dt fifty-seven, thirty b um, and
Rachel Montgomery: for one and a half hours, and then here you can see the time between events and one channel, and from this the average dark country was extracted as three point three counts per second per channel.
Rachel Montgomery: And then here is just the amplitude distribution of these dark counts in a channel which you can see here above the pedestal.
Rachel Montgomery: Okay. So next next step after the the initial setup was the cosmic ray test. So for this uh plastic a plastic uh scintillator was used, and and this was a five by five centimeters squared tile of Bj. Two hundred,
Rachel Montgomery: which was placed on top of the central pixels of the la Pvd. And This was the the central four pixels. You can see an example of the waveform shape here on the oscilloscope.
Rachel Montgomery: Um
Rachel Montgomery: and this this was generate allowed to run for forty-eight hours, and eight channels were recorded around the center of the La Pd. Using the digitizer again, so the ones under the crystal and the ones beside the crystal as well.
Rachel Montgomery: Here you can see a a typical amplitude spectrum from one of the channels.
Rachel Montgomery: Okay? And here on the right. This is the responses of the pixels. So in this graph uh, these are the eight pixels. The The red box is the position of the scintillator. Um, and the color is the counts above threshold
Rachel Montgomery: purple in that these graphs is zero, so i'll go to the next slide. But what's interesting here is that
Rachel Montgomery: these three uh pixels, you can see counts above threshold. So scintillator counts but one corner here, which Max to Pixel d four uh shows no no events above the pedestal,
Rachel Montgomery: and and this here you can see the the amputee distribution, so you can see where we have the signals, and then this is the d four pixel here, where there was no counts above the threshold, observed, So this is something that will have to be investigated farther with a one,
Rachel Montgomery: the device one twenty.
Rachel Montgomery: Okay, So this this is um. That was a report on the the recent sort of set initial measurements with this device, which is exciting to see um. And here we've just detailed some of the the
Rachel Montgomery: like comedian next step um measurement plan at Glasgow with this device. So this includes a game scans and a transit time scans, and we're um
Rachel Montgomery: with our our setup. Just now we we use a laser trigger, but we want to improve this setup to include a beam splitter and a reference pmt. To trigger on and remove the the any trigger
Rachel Montgomery: Um! We'd like to do a a course a full area scan of the the device with a laser. So we have two wavelengths in Glasgow. These are a blue one and a red one, and and
Rachel Montgomery: we can we can set a quite fine steps over Xy scanning stages you saw. So we'd like to start with the order of a millimeter. Steps, scan a millimeter beam, and then moving on. From that, the next step would be to use a high resolution
Rachel Montgomery: uh scanning steps. So something sub millimeter to scan over a limited area with these two wavelengths.
Rachel Montgomery: Um! And then something which uh has already been studied in our app with a centimeters and silicon photo multipliers, is the separation of triangle and scintillation right from there. These Pgo wisal and living forward scintillators. So that's something that would be interested
Rachel Montgomery: it. We would be interested to study with this device, and that's a a future plan, and then um. We also want to put this into a cosmic ray test, and which i'll. I'll discuss about,
Rachel Montgomery: and a few sites.
Rachel Montgomery: So this is just some more details about the the ways we're scanning test. Stand at Glasgow, And so the plan is to use our picosecond laser to perform a high precision Step scan so we can get down to the step sizes of zero point. One micrometers and the laser spot. Size is adjustable from from these ranges.
Rachel Montgomery: This is the laser jetter
Rachel Montgomery: uh less than three picoseconds uh uh a sharp pulse, with, and, as I said. We have two wavelengths at the moment, and and this is kind of a a detailed diagram of the setup. So we have a device under under test or xy stage with the filters in a light type box. Um, and we have the option to have this um
Rachel Montgomery: vm. Based readout, as you can see here. Uh, we're we're triggering on the the laser. Uh, or we could all. We can also um attach the device to the chain digitizers, or fast as well.
Rachel Montgomery: Um, but we would also like to study. Of course the transit time spread as well, and and scans to look at the the uniformity of this across the device. And and so to do that, we think, rather than triggering on this laser than an upgrade that we're planning for this This
Rachel Montgomery: box is to use a fast photon detector and with a beam splitter to to trigger on one laser path to lemonade, walk on the laser trigger signal.
Rachel Montgomery: Okay, the other um configuration we'd like to test this in is uh our cosmic way to stand So you can see this here, actually here. You can see that this is the light tight box where the La Pd. Is housed just now, and this is the oscilloscope, and then this is our cost made me on stand.
Rachel Montgomery: So we previously used this uh this set up actually to study me. Pmt's for the the class, twelve rich detector, and how it works is we have these plastic scintillator bars, top and bottom, and they have. They're red at each end by uh
Rachel Montgomery: an Xp. Twenty, twenty pmt. As a muon passes through, and then we have our device under test here, and possibly an aerial title. And here, so we can trigger on a coincidence trigger of these muons,
Rachel Montgomery: and also, and we can measure the track angles as well.
Rachel Montgomery: Okay. And this is just some um
Rachel Montgomery: example. Old results of that we got with this test set up, and our H eight thousand five hundred and a Pmt. Plus aerial. So you can see here some rings of uh on the pixels of the eight to five hundred from the area, and then in the middle you can also see some remnant rings of shrink of
Rachel Montgomery: created in the window, and
Rachel Montgomery: as the new one passed through the glass window the Pmt. Which we've cut out, but you can see some some remnants there, and so our plans would be to put the La Pd plus a area or theatre between these two bars, and and then we can um and a study response to
Rachel Montgomery: the the other thing. Um. So we recently got involved with was this erd one hundred and one proposal for the enrich project, R. And D. In the next fiscal year, which was led by Jr. And Marco. And
Rachel Montgomery: so this this proposal is for the enrich uh R and D, which is a compact, modular, which which should fit within the eic space requirements one hundred and fifty
Rachel Montgomery: Um! And these are the the
Rachel Montgomery: the behaviors, the performance Sorry. So it's apparently on separation from two to eight Gv. Over C. And the electron pile and up to two. Gv. And it's an aerial plus uh focusing system that has a proximity focusing modular uh detector.
Rachel Montgomery: So our initial plans for this would be to evaluate the La. Pd. And and read out options for the La Pd. For this rich detector.
Rachel Montgomery: It was just quite exciting for us, because we really always wanted to to get back involved with a rich studies of photon detectors. And And so the Ic. Is a really exciting opportunity for that. Obviously. Um. So what we plan to do is uh test. Our existing
Rachel Montgomery: La Ppd. With aerial tiles in the and the cosmic stand which I showed you. So we do have some old area hotels, but it would be nice to get some new ones.
Rachel Montgomery: Um! And then another thing that we plan to do is to value we option. So the specifics of these are still under development. One thing we're quite interested in is that we may have the opportunity to study pico Tdc. System from Ken. Initially, we were thinking to test this with
Rachel Montgomery: uh silicon Pms.
Rachel Montgomery: And with this I can
Rachel Montgomery: uh a rock asic based readout, which is connected to this pico Ddc. Which supposedly should offer very high timing resolutions on the order of a picosecond
Rachel Montgomery: um. So it could be interesting to to connect that to this Ipms and also evaluate, if it's something that could be useful for the
Rachel Montgomery: um. And we're also really interested to uh going to keep our eyes open for potential sources of funding to to apply for the the ten by ten centimeters uh device which would would match the footprint of the em rich modules, Actually, because the twenty centimetre one
Rachel Montgomery: is to march.
Rachel Montgomery: Okay, So sorry i'm a bit faster than the times, I think. But uh, just to summarize. So we have a
Rachel Montgomery: the income one hundred and twenty device. It's a twenty by twenty centimeters. La. Pvd. And studies are ongoing it's been successfully installed in our our white tight box and um we've seen a measures of dark count rate and initial signals from Muons and a plastic scintillator, which is a really exciting
Rachel Montgomery: um. We would plan to perform a series of tests using these existing characterization stands in Glasgow, and this includes upgrading the laser, scanning test system for transit time studies,
Rachel Montgomery: and and also for the rich studies. And we plan to look at the response to aerial in the cosmic stand,
Rachel Montgomery: and that brings us to the end.
Alexander Kiselev: Thank you, Rachel Alexander. I have a question
Alexander Kiselev: first. We, of course, should integrate you in er the hundred ten
Alexander Kiselev: next year, or in the course of the coming here; and second is indeed the ten centimeter. H. Rpps should pretty much
Alexander Kiselev: you know the size of a module pretty well, and if you are interested, so once we have this naive integration package
Alexander Kiselev: finished, and we tell that it works. Of course we can share it. So once you agree with income to rent a title. So just just bear this in mind.
Rachel Montgomery: Okay, that's excellent. You have to a note of that. Thank you very much. That sounds really exciting.
simona: We have time for one question
common.
Jerry Vavra: You might
Jerry Vavra: quality of cheering coverings. If you add some absorber for Mons. Because with the existing
Jerry Vavra: stand, I think that you are getting a lot of softy
Jerry Vavra: nuance which will spread the
Rachel Montgomery: Okay. That's an interesting idea. Uh, I think I think that would be something that would be great to try. Thanks for the suggestion. I know in the in the past that we had a a stack of lead at the bottom to kind of
Rachel Montgomery: a
Rachel Montgomery: um yeah, to try and harden the spectrum. So maybe um add in some of the barber material could could be a really nice addition to this. Thank you for that tip.
Jerry Vavra: One, of course, needs a lot of iron O, to. Okay, that's the another story. But the other would help already.
Rachel Montgomery: Okay,
Rachel Montgomery: Great. Thank you.
simona: Anything else for Rachel.
simona: Okay. So uh, according to the again that we have uh let me ten minutes break about right now. Uh, I did see some comments in the chat for a while. More time, for when I even if we go over time. I was just by Syria to keep the time very quickly, so i'm sorry for being the bad guy
simona: uh, but for our Italian colleagues. It's like nine Pm. Now, and we are just halfway through That's why I interrupted, You and I didn't mean to be
simona: as a quarter to those uh that are in Europe. We just have to try to keep the time. So thank you all, and have a ten minute break, and we resume for myself that we can engine. She will Ch: at the next uh half of the workshop. Thank you.
chirayat: Okay, yeah, i'll start now. Uh let me share my screen. Can you uh see my screen? And uh, you can hear me properly, right? Yeah.
chirayat: Okay. So yeah, yeah, Well, thank you. Uh for giving me an opportunity to talk about uh our work here at Uta. Um, This work is done at the Picosecond Test lab. We have, uh uh, by the the the the by the brink spring. This you get to try, and through Brand and I am a research assistant professor working here. Um, So
chirayat: a as the name suggests. We'll be talking about the um lifetime testing of uh um uh l A. Pd. Which we uh did here some time back. Um! So the lifetime of a micro channel play for
chirayat: okay. The lifetime of a micro channel played photo multiplier tube Um is mainly limited. Uh, because of the Uh. I am, it's believed to be limited because of the damage costs by the ion feedback um back to the photo cathode, which where the positive ions can uh either stick to the surface of the photo cather, or can um uh sputter the surface of the photo cat, or changing the photo capital chemistry
chirayat: uh, and this ions might be produced during this electron amplification process which happens inside the polls of the Mcp. Uh. It can be from the surface of the Mcp itself. Uh, or it can be the ionization of the residual gases in in the ports. Um the spot. So the the removal of the positive ions from the Mcp services can also detrimental to the gain of the Mcp. And uh, the the presence of this, that positive Ion feedback you can actually see in your segments if you were
chirayat: to look uh if you were to look at at the like larger timescale from your uh main signal main signal means the signal which is associated with your incoming photon. Uh, then you can see it after a few uh nanoseconds. Let's, say ten or fifteen or twenty nanosecond. Later. If you see some pulses that is most likely uh due to this afterwards. Uh. The the time at which this after pulse occurs is mainly determined by the time taken by the positive V on time of flight. Uh:
chirayat: And so this can be actually become a poor man's uh time of flight mass spectrometer, because the time of all this depends on the charge to mass ratio and the amount of electric field that you have applied. Uh, between the photo gathered, and the Mcp. And the Mcp gain themselves. Um! So um you. The presence of this operators definitely shows that this process is happening, and it is widely believed that that is what is responsible for the uh damage.
chirayat: Now, how can you uh avoid that? There has been um a landmark studies to uh avoid this process. So one of the things you can do is to do uh al coding inside the um the Mcp post, so that the removal of this positive ion is suppressed. Another thing is, you can code the surface of the Mcp with passage passive layer, so that again once again the positive ion do not go back to the photo method, and the third method, which is that uh which you can do is you can put a grid
chirayat: in between the photo cathode and the Mcp. Uh which you can uh
chirayat: bias net positive with respect to the top and Cp. Such that the positive ions once again are not reaching to the phot together, but are reflected back into the Uh Mcp. So there are many methods. So of these. The first one, which is the Ald quoting method has been the most successful, and the pioneering work by uh layman at all has shown uh, how far we have uh progress in extending the rough uh lifetime of Mcp. Uh Pmt. From a few uh hundred milliseconds uh to
uh uh
chirayat: twenty coulomb per centimeter square. So uh, in this studies. It is pioneering in the sense that because of the fact that they were able to measure the aging process of multiple and different kind of M. Cps uh simultaneously, and they they had a four, four, sixty nanometer led, uh which they homogeneously eliminated the entire Ncp. At a single P. You eight, and I think they It was possible to one Megahertz
chirayat: and the Mcp. Pmt. Um. With the ald coated uh uh the quoting technology developed by a radiance at all under the uh radiance. You, Tsb. I was the first M. C. P. T. And T, which was able to go beyond ten coulomb proceeding with the square, and in this, in this particular uh uh study, by lame and at all, they were able to uh for one of the Uh. M. C. P pmt they were able to go as far as that is in twenty twenty, so it might have gone even further than that. Uh, they could uh extend the lifetime
to twenty-six coulombs per centimeter square.
chirayat: Now, uh, since the entire um uh m cpm t is radiated. Um you need actually and and it is related at a single t level at the lower right. Um! You actually need an extended period of radiation to achieve this integrated uh Anode charts um to provide to provide a clear feedback on the absolute detective lifetime. Um! So this measurement, as far as I believe, to close to eleven years to reach this twenty-six cool and per centimeter square, which
chirayat: this is uh um fantastic. But the thing is that sometimes you need uh uh
chirayat: your feedback uh, uh, whether your Uh Ncp. Uh Pmt design, and the photo keto chemistry that you have uh arrived at uh is good for is is uh uh It's a long lifetime uh, detector or not. You want that feedback pitching so that you can to make changes to your uh design process. Um, and and test taking. So this is where we came in. Um! And we uh have uh developed a pixel based
chirayat: uh accelerated testing.
chirayat: When I say pixel based it means that you'd not to um damage the entire M. Cpm. T. But you damage only a small pixel of the um of the M. C. P. And T. Uh. Which allows you to um actually test the tube again. Um, uh! If at the different configuration, if you want to change the configuration of the uh of the detective voltages that you have used, or something else, and see whether whether you can extend uh the uh Mcp empty lifetime, for example,
chirayat: uh operating the Mcp. And created over again. But, uh adding on the making up for that gain with the pre amplifiers, so that the overall lifetime can be extended. But you need to test whether that will actually allow you to operate the Uh. Mc. Pmt. Uh for a longer uh time or not. But if you change the M. C. P. Mt. Completely. Then it is not guaranteed right, Like as the talks progress. You have seen that there is significant uh a difference between the behavior of one and Cpm. T. To another
chirayat: Cpt. And for at least for Lapds. So it it is nice to actually radiate the same Mcp. Mp. At multiple locations in different configurations, and that will uh allow you to completely understand the uh degradation process as well as your configuration and your design. So one of the first things you have to make sure. When we were developing this technique, one one of the important questions that we had to answer was when you were uh damaging an M. Cpm. T. At one single pixel.
chirayat: Is that damage uh uh located only near that pixel? Or is there some kind of global uh interaction happening, and which can cause damage at some other location of the Uh. M. C. P. T. So in the pixel base accelerated aging, we first said that the pixel based it is pixel based in the sense that um the damage is localized. So, for example, this is a a five centimeter per five centimeter, M. C. Pmt: where uh, we actually
chirayat: uh uh this. This uh, this shows the number of photo electrons as
chirayat: I measured as scanned. So you can see that we did this measurement at ten, four to electrons. Um, and then uh, we were looking at the uh uh the behavior of post-gradation. So what we did is we just uh this central line is actually not there. It is just for us to uh know which which region that we are caught um um irradiating. It was actually just back. So we we were um scanning only
chirayat: um each cord, and then it was to spec uh, so otherwise it is a uniform. It is a uniform quantum efficiency. Uh. Mc. Pmt: So what we did is we irradiated the first quadrant here, and then we went on to reduce the second quadrant, we went on to ready the third quarter, and then this is the result. After uh, after uh, you know, irritation irritation means exposing the the tube to a uh uh to a right at higher intensity at that higher rate. Um! And we see that the the performance of
chirayat: of this uh quadrant, which was not uh irradiated, but it means more or less the sake, So that way we became confident that the um
chirayat: a pixel base can be applied because the damage remains uh localized. And then there are. There are no extended uh effects uh during this uh degradation process.
chirayat: The second thing in the pixel-based, accelerated aging is that accelerated eighty. So is the question was is when you're when you're uh irradiating the uh tube um at the with the right larger light intensity. Um! When the when the Mc. Pmt. Is probably saturated, is the damage creative
chirayat: similar to the damage created. Uh, when you have the uh uh lifetime tested like the previous, as done by layman at all. Uh, can they both be similar?
chirayat: So what i'm showing here
chirayat: is the uh the current measured from a a sip line uh L. A. Pd. Uh, when both the Uh Ncps are operating. So you have two Mcps. The top Mcps uh uh is uh probably a tech uh a high gain operation. The second Ncp. Is also the high gain operation, such that the combined gain is like ten raised to six uh here, and then what i'm doing is i'm just measuring the current of the annual strip and uh. The So the x-axis is showing you the laser rate.
chirayat: Um, and the y-axis is uh showing you the uh increase in the current that you expect when you increase the laser rate. Say, for example, you look at the current at ten kilohertz, and then, when you increase the laser rate to say one hundred kilohertz, you expect that if nothing, If everything remains the same, you expect that the current extract it should be like ten times um, and so that is the that is the uh orange, which is basically a linear uh increase, right? So it is this from ten kilohertz. It's like um
chirayat: ten times here. So this is one hundred kilos, and so on.
chirayat: And now what we, what the blue show is actually the measuring increase, and both the Mcps are operating. So you should look at the current measured, and you see that, uh, even by uh, say, five hundred kilohertz, you are not reaching the expected increase in the current, and and obviously the Mcp. To the two M. Cpm. T's. Are saturated, and it's not able to uh to give you the uh gain of ten dollars to uh six
chirayat: now. So this means that the entire device is saturated. But the question is, is the saturation the same for the top, Mcp and the bottom in Cp. Or not, So the same light intensity is, it is, is is the entire device as a whole is saturated. But is the top M. C.
chirayat: Can that behave normally. So if it then what we did is we just took out the second Mcp. We use the second Mcp. That is, the bottom and cps uh the Anode Uh. We were collecting the current of the second Mcp. And you can see that the uh expected increase and the measured increase of the same. So uh what it this tells you, and you can also see that it Uh, I can start measuring the current only about by five hundred kilohertz. Obviously I am having only a single Mcp. So the current
chirayat: that machine is much lower uh the gain is only ten raised to three or so. So uh, I can start measuring the current only at at around this point, so that what this is telling you, which is, which is intuitive right? So telling you is that the top Mcp is behaving properly, But because of this ten raised to three, gain. The The second Ncp. Is the one which is getting saturated as you increase the laser rate
chirayat: now, so the top and Cp. Is uh uh it's not saturated, even if you are operating at. Say um one hundred Megahertz uh with the single P. Kind of uh behavior. Now, So what is so important about the chopping Cp: So what
chirayat: uh our studies have indicated? It is that it is the top Mcp which is responsible, which is the uh place from which this I am feedback mostly start because of this chevron configuration. Uh, it is the ions ions from the top, and Cp's are able to reach the the photo cattle. So if the top Mcb is not saturated, If it is behaving properly, then the damage process should also be similar, even if it is not. If you uh should be similar for an accelerated aging, or it's just a non accelerated
chirayat: to show that what I'm uh showing here is the uh, single people single P like, Okay. So there are multiple Ps here. You can also see second uh two Ps here, anyway, single P. Like pulsite distribution. Uh for the one of the one of the Lf. Pds. Um, and uh,
chirayat: and you can see that by hundred K, the the Forum has moved into the pedestal, showing that the same saturation behavior now, even when the uh when the entire uh Mcp. Tmt. Is saturated. If you look at there afterwards. Um! And, as I've told you afterwards, is an indication of this positive and feedback being happening. So if you were to look at the afterwards, the after pulses does not change, whether it is ten kilohertz or one hundred kilohertz, That is what is shown in this uh plot
chirayat: on the right hand side, which is this time is actually the time after the main point. So you are looking at Parsons, which is occurring in fifty nanoseconds, seventy-five, and a second close to one hundred nanosecond, and so on. So the ones that two hundred times a second is most likely the ones which is having Um! It's massive ions taking a longer time to reach the uh photo capital.
chirayat: So if you were to look at the rate the rate does not change. So even when the Mcp. Pmt is saturated, the after pulse rate is not change which tells you that it is the top, Mcp which is responsible, and since the stop Mcp is not saturated, the damage to using and feedback remains the same, and Hence you can use a pixel based accelerated testing for, uh, you are lifetime measurements. And so we uh did a measurement uh we use a pixel based accelerated testing for a Uh. M. C. Pmt. From L. A. Ppd. This is L. A. Ppd. Sixty, four
chirayat: um, which whose uh um uh parameters are given up here. It is uh
chirayat: it has uh twenty-eight ships up here. And um.
chirayat: So the irradiation portion is up uh shown here.
chirayat: And so um! The basic setup is there? Um! So before the lifetime test, you do some pre-characterization uh in the laser box uh where you have the laser box nutrient distant, filters, and you look at the Mcp. Empty characteristics and the Mcp. Empty characteristics are shown here. Them I'm. Showing only the main one, the one the one on the uh let shows you the game characteristic. So this is a lap. Pd. Sixty-four is one with the very high gain it's um close to like six or so tender is to my uh ten to to seventy,
chirayat: and as you can see that as you uh um go into a higher rate, it it goes to saturation, and this is the transit time spread uh for the same uh, for the same measurement up here. Uh the transit time spread does not show so much degradation even during um this uh saturation. Just to be sure, i'm only considering. For this transit time spread those pulses which make, which is which are about this for showed up here uh It's It's It's about this
eighty p second or so
chirayat: so since you can, you can. Yeah, yeah, can I just rush through the uh main to do uh. So we did the lifetime, testing on the uh the lap. Pd. And the uh the lap. Pd: sixty, four uh did not show any degradation for almost that. That is the May. The average pulse site of a single single single distribution. Uh did not show any variation uh up to like five cool and five points.
chirayat: It's two months per cent. Of it as well, and similarly, the number of courses about the threshold. The The number of courses which is above stress about this threshold also did not show any variation. So this number of courses is an indication is directly proportional to the quantum efficiency, and this average full site is a indication of the gain. So both of them did not show uh any variation. And this uh um Mcp. Mt. Was sent back to it. Um in com for qe scan, and, as uh expected, there was no damage absurd at the irradiated
It's it.
chirayat: Uh. So just to uh point out why this uh M. C. Pmt. Has a uh large uh a good lifetime till five pounds per centimeter square is because it's after pulse rate is extremely small. Um, at a gain of ten to out of seven the two guys are an afterwards rate of only five percentage is comparable to some of the best. Uh Mcp. Pmt's. Unfortunately, we have to give this M. Cpm. T. Back because of the because income needed it for some other purposes, and hence we could not uh extend the lifetime test further.
chirayat: So to conclude uh and let Ppd. Sixty-four is a hygiene, M. Cpm. T. With the node uh degradation until five point six, two per centimeter square and uh. And so this accelerated aging is a promising complementary method to the normal uh uh the binary in that time to see uh work because we can't provide feedback in realistic time. Scales um. Then our future work is, we are actually presently in testing Uh. An M. C. P. Mt. With higher after pulse rate. So we think that it should have a lower lifetime, so
chirayat: so we can generate a coordination between the afterwards for it and the lifetime. And we are also collaborating with Uh Cole and Alexei Uh in in future. Uh, they have submitted, and a an spi proposal where we will be testing the Uh um. The behavior of an M. C. Ppmt. With modified photo Capitalist:
chirayat: Thank you.
Junqi Xie: Um. Question.
Go ahead.
Alexander Kiselev: Oh, yeah, thank you. Interesting token. But i'm not sure that I was able to r everything so but a simple question. So if one do, I get it right that from the uh lifetime perspective,
Alexander Kiselev: if one is willing to work with lower game
Alexander Kiselev: uh the lower uh Dv. On the top, Mcp. Only instead of doing this symmetrically on both of them,
chirayat: make up for the game uh, so that is, operate the uh top and ct at uh lower game, and uh make up for that game at the bottom of
chirayat: it, just for it. That looks like it. You can actually extend the uh life that, but we haven't made a study. But that is what it looks like here.
chirayat: I think this would affect the timing resolution of the but yes, this would affect the timing the solution. So this there is also Another way of thinking about it is that you probably can uh avoid the situation by doing the big, the rewards right. You can operate the chop and Cp at higher gain uh where you are not worried about the the lifetime. But you're more worried about the saturation behavior, for example, for high rate experience. You probably can operate it in the other way around.
Alexander Kiselev: Thank you.
Junqi Xie: Okay, So there's an error in the ganda. So we fixed the so every every call could be behind. That will be like a ten minutes to shift uh um earlier. So take care of the um. Look at the the agenda so that you can know where the time is. Your talk.
Junqi Xie: Okay,
Junqi Xie: it's normal.
chirayat: So Shannon stops sharing.
Junqi Xie: Yes, go ahead as I start our sharing, and then
Junqi Xie: I think i'm next one.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: Okay, Good afternoon or good night.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: So this is uh, I've been chance of from my innocence, Bologna and the year we are showing some latest results with the with the A. Pd. In uh for the application of the Lc. Vehicle upgrade. Uh:
Vincenzo Vagnoni: So this is an outline of of uh, the topics. First First of all, let me show about uh the results. About the first the stack uh
Vincenzo Vagnoni: uh a P Pd. That was tested that certain Sp: as if you were a couple of months ago, and then also some first results with the I I. Those proton radiation at the at seven, he wrote, and then some final results for the aging test of Ncps in commensities with the Uv light in the vacuum chamber
Vincenzo Vagnoni: a a like detector within two hours of an electromagnetic colorimeter, with aim of measuring the the rival time of the electromagnetic showers. Uh. So, according to our simulations, we need to reach a a good timing resolution of the order of twenty picoseconds, and the idea is
Vincenzo Vagnoni: so. This is a a a picture of I mean, you see a couple of pictures taken from the last uh
Vincenzo Vagnoni: uh testim at the Sps.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: Uh. So this is the first G stack produced by income uh uses three lcps instead of the usual two. This came with ten micron ports,
Vincenzo Vagnoni: and so the idea is that the presence of an additional Ncp. Should give us more more flexibility in managing iurate conditions. And also, if, uh, I again, with lower handages, when the Pc. Is done and off.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: So when there is no
Vincenzo Vagnoni: so uh this L. A. Fbi came with an aluminum photoc, with the which which had an extremely low quantum efficiency, so we can couldn't make a durable characterization with lots of pulses uh before the the test bin. And then the test beam, as I said, was conducted in Jonah, and we use the electron in electron beam rangy from twenty to one hundred. Gv:
Vincenzo Vagnoni: Okay. So this is a a a a, a, a, a, a a sketch of that of of the experiments of setup. So we have the bill. Then we have a pair of sinky leaders users for triggering the pair of Uh Ncp committees for reference. Timing, eh? Three delay white chambers which were used to track the the electrons, and then Finally, the the D is under study which
Vincenzo Vagnoni: all of the studies are based on that on data taken in this way.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: Uh: okay, that there is another detailing that the module is tilted with respect to the B Maxes. This is because of the sparkle geometry which has a uh Lungitonian city. Let increased til. Since. So if if particles in ping normally to the surface, there are no uniform, it is depending on whether you're eating on the absorber or on the on, on, the, on, the, on the crystals. So for these reasons the the models are tilted by a little bit such that the better uniformity is is achieved.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: So this is just a list of the voltage settings that are being used at the
Vincenzo Vagnoni: and for this test beam
Vincenzo Vagnoni: uh corrected in a, in a, in a in an upcoming prototype, as I would see later, and then I mean we we. We had to put an English bias of them bolts between the photocal and the entry of the top. Mcp just really bit electrons to migrate from the protocol to the multiplication stage, although, as I said in this case the quantum efficiency was extremely low. Anyway.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: Then the other thing we had to align uh with with the beam, and this was used by this was made by checking the how the amplitude change at the subtraction of the position of the electrons, and then the place that you see here with the cross in X and Y. These amplitudes of the why you speak so. They cross in the in the middle of the pixel, and so we were able to identify the the the the middle of the pixel, and so we were sure that we're writing the the the right way. We were. Well line
Vincenzo Vagnoni: uh this was for a particular run, like one hundred Gv. With the being directed towards the center of G four. When I say to directed towards you to understand the the the the beam at the sps is not point like, so you have quite the no negligible spread. So you direct the axis of the beam toward the G four. But you have electrons uh, or also well around the that part.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: Okay. So what problem uh that? That we have to solve this out to combine measurements of bodies pixels. So if you want to obtain an optimal timing measurement, you know in general, the electron can it? Whatever point of the ecle, and that's of the the surface, and really signals in multiple pixels.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: So somehow you have to find the way to combine the measurements of the of the pixels
Vincenzo Vagnoni: and the and the far more in our case the pixels are are really large. So you know, a combination of of several measurements by different vixen can be important to achieve a good uniformity across the surface, independent of how the wave of charge develops in the internal environment.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: I mean, we regression tree based on on grading boasts. Uh, I don't go to the details, not to lose time, but I mean, the idea is to combine the permission containing all the sequence of the full pixels and the coordinates measured by the delay by chambers. In order to obtain an average uh time stamp, one has to be in this kind of a
Vincenzo Vagnoni: uh. In the following uh, we are presenting the preliminary study all day for the runs at twenty and the one hundred Gv: just because we we didn't finish everything uh uh! And now the detail is that all the time stem so in the following are calculated by two point interpolation at at fifty percent constant fraction.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: So this is an example of what you get. If you direct the beam toward the center one Pixel G. Four. In this case, you see on the left-hand side is the plot of the role time of the pixel, minus one
Vincenzo Vagnoni: uh in the pixel, and and you see the action of the Gpt, which is using information also of the other pixels where you have part of the signal, which is, which is also uh
Vincenzo Vagnoni: uh leaking. Uh, you see that the the ability is able to uh symmetrize the distribution of the timing resolution. And uh, also you don't have any longer, I mean, did this long, annoying daily. You see something little bit, but not very much. And also what you see from me from this plot is that the training simple which is in black and the test simple, which are in blue, do not show differences which is assigned, that there is nothing over training that
Vincenzo Vagnoni: a resolution from the Gpt. Tea up to about twenty picoseconds. This is another example: when, where we uh! Directly being towards the crossing of the port pixels. So you have this at the four pixels, and what you're measuring the four pixels, and you see I mean this way: the distributions with very long deals, and also quite significant uh uh
Vincenzo Vagnoni: standard deviations. And then again, when you combine everything, you get a symmetrized distribution with with a much lower
Vincenzo Vagnoni: standard standard deviation. And again, once you subtract the reference time we get something around twenty four people say
Vincenzo Vagnoni: so. Then. I mean, if you train
Vincenzo Vagnoni: all of the runs together depend on the position, and then you test everything to there together. This is what we get. So you see, in the case of the twenty. Gv: There is a little bit of the training is, so you see the the the training simple and the test samples do not give the same distribution. Exactly. Uh this is mostly due to the lower statistics of of Uh in this run and the uh for the large It' be been spread of the sps at twenty Gd. It's It's not the problem in itself. But what what gives you an idea is that in any case we can get
Vincenzo Vagnoni: uh, more or less the same. Our solution for for the two cases of twenty Gb. And one hundred Gd electrons, and roughly again, in the bulletp of twenty-five, twenty-six picoseconds. One you subtract, Then you have to subtract from from missing products will be the reference uh time, which is, as I said, about fifteen per second
Vincenzo Vagnoni: erez agmoni. So let's let's come to the second part of the talk, which is on the irrigation test and rearrange the the facilitates and which provides a b of twenty-four Gdp.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: And uh, you see that these are the bin profiles in in x and y of of the beam spot.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: So uh the the the uh, for we don't maximum is is order of one centimeter. And uh, if you make the calculations, I mean, you can inspect. And this is actually what we got about ten to the sixteen protons to be integrated in Moscow centimeters during about one week on that that was made by the end of June beginning of July, right after the Sps test. B
Vincenzo Vagnoni: and Uh: okay, ten to the sixteen protons. If you want the corresponding uh uh uh, in in a Newton equivalent. This is about one out, so five in ten to the minus fifteen.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: During the the irradiations the Ppd. Was kept under a voltage, so there were nine hundred volts for Mcp. And twenty balls in the gaps we our actually, we decided to inipe the the photocop during the reef, and it didn't make too much sense to make it, although we made we made it light tight. But it was not really needed at that point. But afterwards, after the irrigation we inserted the blue led in in in front of the irrigated area in order to send the light to the square of the one,
Vincenzo Vagnoni: and this is just a couple of pictures of uh the Ipd mounted on a motorcycle just in front of the the beam exit. And then this is a picture when we were aligning with the with the lasers, the the the the pixel on uh on the beam spot
Vincenzo Vagnoni: uh the Ddd. Performances with both to just uh evolve it. And you see here in the past generator, the Pc. For the acquisition uh the Mini wreck here for for the Redoubt Board and the and the power supply. So here is a plot of the that counts after the radiation.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: So you see here, the plot is is the amplitude plot, and then this is the magnification of this plot around the uh, very low amplitudes. So you see, empty the P. Of events here. Uh, and then, If you put the cut that around for me levels, then you can get three double damped events and measure how many the accounts you have above this is for me what is also, by the way, this time, that the uh cap that is applied by income when they are measuring
Vincenzo Vagnoni: back rates in the factory before delivering the devices
Vincenzo Vagnoni: I mean for our purposes.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: So this is, uh what it was. The amplitude distribution with the average of about thirty million, and then average gain of about six in ten to the six before the navigation uh the uh. In this case we had to use uh some settings, which were, I mean the the. You see the the voltage apply on the forecast
Vincenzo Vagnoni: changes over time, but we have to rebuild this to the fact that the comparator in the we're not to be under control, and there was the some compared to was changing
Vincenzo Vagnoni: quite drastically during the summer. So this is our best best guess for this more variation. But basically the the what you see from here is that the game didn't change in a significant way after the in relation up to ten to the sixteen. Prot:
Vincenzo Vagnoni: Okay. So these are just the conclusion. So we don't want to to to read them. I mean, just we have to make more tense, thanks to the staff, which which are for us a lot. Not that we didn't measure the the quantum efficiency losses. This was not very significant for this kind of test, and not even relevant for our proposes
Vincenzo Vagnoni: uh a workshop. So this is just a reminder. What we do is we put the stack of the Mcps inside the vacuum chamber, uh which has a view part on top, and then we place a a
Vincenzo Vagnoni: um
Vincenzo Vagnoni: of the stack, and then this is as a function of the integrated charge. So you see, there is some structure I mean something going on. And uh, you see that it starts degrading, and at some point I mean, after after fifty, fifty, or more or less, fifty or something more, maybe seventy
Vincenzo Vagnoni: uh coulomb space into me to start to go down. What you see here in these discount jumps is is because at the in this point we decided to leave the
Vincenzo Vagnoni: the Mcp's address for one week, so there was no light anymore when we restarted. Uh, we have seen, we, we observed that the gain increase it the significantly. But then, after about two thousand and thirty, the school on sorry
Vincenzo Vagnoni: twenty-two, the cool and per centimeters, they the the gain went back to the previous trend, basically. And we repeated these also at the end of the of of of the campaign. And we made also another measurement after one week we no light. And we we also saw here that there was temporarily increase of uh, uh of of the game, so not that these absentees were not preconditioning in any way before being in certain to launching chamber. So, for example, we didn't apply any pre eating to remove
Vincenzo Vagnoni: and receive their water, feel more rather impurities. They would just use that as they were up to the factory, and after the the the delivery
Vincenzo Vagnoni: uh, we have completed the irrigation campaign with twenty-four Gv protons uh at at with the we reach a ten to the sixteen procons in one square centimeters, and there is a a some increase in that creates I mean not forward zone for us, and basically not in back from gain. And finally, we have completed the the the lifetime.
Junqi Xie: I thank you for the talk, and I see Amazon there. Go ahead for your questions
Alexander Kiselev: erez agmoni. Very interesting to thank you, and plenty of the results, of course. So I had a question two independent questions about the first part of your presentation. So first one about Cluster, one hundred and one
Alexander Kiselev: timing measurement, because I think it's similar to what we will face as soon or later with single photon clusters, and also with the time of life application.
Alexander Kiselev: So I was my you thinking. So you're using this boot issues in prize memorial network whatever. So I was. I was thinking that, uh, you know the position of your uh, the thrust, the thrust of the shower, because you know that trajectory of the primary particle Right? Yes,
Alexander Kiselev: it contributes to the measurement. So the relative delays are pretty much known from the simulation.
Alexander Kiselev: And so so the delay of what you mean. So the delay of a core um cell, so to speak, so the one which was hit by the particle where the was the core of the shower and the the the next neighbors. Okay, yes. So in this sense I was thinking
Alexander Kiselev: that one uh, instead of using our own networks, one can use uh simultaneous fit of uh meeting edges of all this sales with fixed the delays and the single free. This is uh, I mean, I think this is something that works. If your pixels are are are small enough
Vincenzo Vagnoni: erez agmoni uh as small enough, I mean? Because, uh, in this case, with an extended pixel, it matters in which place of the pixel you're distributing your signal. The The signal is not invariant. One hundred and fifty.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: With respect to where you are eating the pixel, if the pixel is more enough, in fact, in in in particular, is is is more than the the distribution of the shower, the electromagnetic shower, Then probably all of this can simplify, as you, as you say, by simply taking the averages of the values. So with with proper uh offsets, I mean that the averages of the values uh pixels in this case with pixels which are so large, you see all you you can see I mean, Look at this distribution here.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: So it's it's It's possible to do what you mean. I mean, you know it's It's just making a correct statistical model of what is going on. It's not so easy, I believe, at least with pixels of these sites, maybe with smallest pixels could be could be much more viable. Yes, okay. But but I was not suggesting to fit uh all pixels independent, because
Alexander Kiselev: I was suggesting to fit everything at once,
Alexander Kiselev: because then the small ones can actually contribute. But, uh, how can you compute the everything at once? But once i'm in your I have. Let's say, nine spectral with leading pages. I know what is the relative delay. It's a trio minimum.
Alexander Kiselev: So you mean you sum all of the spectrum with the with you can not some because you don't you lose the the the,
Alexander Kiselev: of course not. So you are. You are fitting everything at once, but in produce fixed delays based on your knowledge of the precision. Okay, maybe maybe I I I see what you mean. Yeah, one, that that's something that we can. We can also try. Okay, I I think in this case is a bit complicated. By the way, by the fact that you know we you have this
Vincenzo Vagnoni: not Now, to tell you the truth, is not is not, uh, we didn't check yet with the necessary accuracy, whether it is very important to know the position of the beam. In our case, since we have a colorimeter, the calorimeter tells us what was the the the shower, with the precision of about one millimeter, or even less.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: However, you know also the La Ppd. In itself, as the possibility of you. If you look at the values pixels, you you can, you can somehow try to infer what? Which which was the position. So the L. Pd. As already in position and information, and and maybe the importance of of feeding the Db. Dt. With an external measurement is not so large. This is something that we have to better understand. So that's what I had in mind, so that you know the customer. So you can calculate X Y. And then you know the position.
Alexander Kiselev: Okay, we should probably take this off. But the second question was completely different. So you are using uh three Mcp. Uh, uh. So what what level of game are you reaching? So it is
Alexander Kiselev: so in this case. So in this case we were using the we were using one of the tmcps with very low voltage. But but are you telling me that if you could raise it up to fifty you would get the game of ten to the what,
Vincenzo Vagnoni: hey? Well, so, unfortunately we couldn't measure it. We do with the passes, because we didn't have uh I mean this this model didn't this prototype didn't have the working uh uh so measuring the gain in the laboratory wasn't possible, actually, at least
Vincenzo Vagnoni: with the level of accuracy. It wasn't possible with with this, with the next one, which is in now, is is now being delivered, which has a working photo of the we can measure the game for for the the G stack.
Alexander Kiselev: So in this case we didn't measure. If we just put it on the on the beam and then see what happens. Okay. But the idea in principle can be that you're you're spreading the the charge over larger number, of course, and they said, you're a
Vincenzo Vagnoni: the spot on the bottom. Ncp. Would be
Vincenzo Vagnoni: an appropriate way.
Junqi Xie: Okay, uh, there you have a question.
Deb Sankar Bhattacharya: Yes, a very quick curiosity. Actually so in in your game plots I think it was twenty-six, probably. Uh I was curious. If this voltage distribution.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: Okay, So so you you So you mean you don't see the going going up at the low count. What What do you mean? Maybe it doesn't go up just because here we are. We are selecting all the events which are in the in the time. So we are using timing to remove the
Vincenzo Vagnoni: the events which are out of it. So basically we we kept all of the events which are out of the time. And so you you are. You are remaining only with the with the events which are worth time, I mean. And so you don't see the usual rise up of of of of counts of zero. I mean, you don't see the empty events.
Deb Sankar Bhattacharya: Okay,
Deb Sankar Bhattacharya: That would add to the
Junqi Xie: Okay. So I didn't see any more questions. Okay?
Junqi Xie: Well, let's just talk about the new scientific.
Luca Macchiarulo: Uh, yes. Can you hear me? Okay, let me just share.
Luca Macchiarulo: Okay,
Luca Macchiarulo: Um. Hopefully, you can see my screen.
Luca Macchiarulo: Yeah, Everything's good. Okay, Thanks. Okay, Thank you for, uh for the invitation to talk at this very interesting Uh workshop. Um uh, I will. Uh, I will talk mostly on the uh um concentrated on the electronic side on the readout side of the Uh uh of the lay Pbd. And try to to uh share our um um Our experience, but also our our our ideas, and i'll possibly interface some of our asics for uh a a a Pd redoubt
Luca Macchiarulo: uh first a couple of words about uh, now scientific in case uh uh for for people uh might uh never have heard of us. We are. We are a small company. That is a uh uh specializes in in designing uh um asics uh read out in integrated circuit uh which are away from digitizer uh with the main goal of precise time of flight. Um estimation. We have a lot of different uh
Luca Macchiarulo: offerings. We also try to move those into a a an integration phase to read out mostly uh um uh, uh, mostly uh sensors which are used in the Uh. Hp. And Np. Experiments as to particle physics. And so this is where our main applications are, but we also are um looking for other applications like plasma fusion, diagnostic and pt imaging the uh um. The companies is is a fast growing start up in on a little why, and we have a kind of a vert
Luca Macchiarulo: technical expertise from the Ic. Design Hardware board design for more design software design, and also um uh scientific expertise. That, uh allows us to uh interface uh better with the uh with the needs of the Uhhp and and p word um! This is just a a a a small table of the uh of a various chips that we have designed. Um! I will not dwell too much on it. But I will. Uh,
Luca Macchiarulo: uh! In this uh talk I will concentrate on two of these. They are back in the Udc. Uh, because they, uh, they are targeting the type of resolution we are really interested in. Uh for these top of applications.
Luca Macchiarulo: Um. So uh, before actually describing the behavior of this of the chips and the uh, and the way their specs could uh uh could be acceptable for the uh for the lapd applications. So uh, I just want to uh uh to describe a little bit the uh um one of the uh the point of view about the digitizing architecture. We already had a little bit of the of of a of of discussion about this uh earlier today. The uh um
Luca Macchiarulo: uh the the the typical way of uh handling uh a timing uh in in modern experiments is use a much simpler architecture, which is a a discriminator based approach with the Tdc's time over threshold uh possible count. Constant fraction, Discrimination Uh. The advantage of having a full waveform is that we could potentially get a better estimation of overall charge, which is uh important in the lap pdks uh to do uh to get to sub pixel spatial resolution.
Luca Macchiarulo: The use of full away from information is potentially I'll i'll. I'll show with the very, very toy Monte Carlo in a minute what I mean by that uh give better better results in terms of timing extraction. Um robustness to a overall wander and a game variation uh better pile up management uh potentially comparative independence with respect to aging. But this is a as we know it's probably not a big issues for lapd. On the other hand, the uh, the the big drawback of this mechanism
Luca Macchiarulo: theologies that the additional design complexity is high digitizers, but much bigger, much power hungry component than a simple discriminator. And so a also the digital processing require from uh, to go from the way from to the to the timing or to the to the charge. Uh, but one advantages that modern technologies can handle, the especially the digital requirement pretty pretty gracefully, and I will try to show in in the next slide that at least with the with the type of devices we are. We are designing this, we we could hit those targets.
Luca Macchiarulo: Um! So here's a a a a kind of a strawman model of what uh some of the uh um the requirements for a potential uh la Pd. Right now, which are interested, which are interested to this Uh um to this community. Um, i'm looking, for example of it, the other small, relatively small pixel side of through Three point, two millimeters. This corresponds to a one channel for ten millimeters square, which is tough to uh, to to to put so many digitires in that space, but
Luca Macchiarulo: is in the right order of magnitude with the with the devices that we have. Um! We might need to have a gain stage. Uh. So this is again a very strong meant to estimate of a uh for ten to the six to ten to seven gains something like four to forty millivolt to peak uh, so we probably would like to have some again between five and ten. Um! And uh preserve, with this gain at least the rising time of one nanosecond, which actually brings at least probably more than that, but at least
Luca Macchiarulo: something like three hundred and fifty megahertz bandwidth. We would like to get closer to the one giggers. But um! This might be a little bit iffy. So the the point here is that it might be possible to integrate this type of gain in the one hundred and thirty nanometer technology that those chips are made of, and it will just to detail a little bit less uh later in terms of power uh an estimate with the with, the with the the dirk example, the requiring seventy, two Hr. Ppds. I think that Alex. At this presentation that had this uh
Luca Macchiarulo: estimate with around seventy-two thousand channels. If we assume that this is the total system power to kill what that being brings down to thirty millwatts for channel, which is in the ballpark, all the A. Of our existing chips in terms of timing resolution, and how it that is related to the sampling rate for for our system uh the uh um i'm doing here and estimate that if we want to do, and we were all, we probably want to go better than this. But minimally a fifty pico second timing, we need a factor of
Luca Macchiarulo: to better, let's say to uh to to to make sure that the electronic contribution is less uh so we want to eat twenty-five picosecond, and one of the advantages of the uh um of the way from sampling is that the uh? You can actually use multiple samples to estimate the position Here I have a a very, very uh simplified Monte Carlo, where I where I basically try to to estimate what is the timing? Assuming a fairly large one hundred and fifty
Luca Macchiarulo: uh noise Rms. On the individual sample, five millivolts for it hundred Millivolts amplitude, the on the
Luca Macchiarulo: uh, on the polls, and using for uh for points sampled and and doing basically just the linearly squares on this four points. And even with this fairly uh fairly relaxed uh signal to noise ratio uh we could get to twenty-five picosecond using, as you see here, a five year sample per second uh a timing, and we all know that most of the measurements that people have presented today have been using the the Drs for the uses. Five five uh uh giga sample per second, so it can even reach much better results,
Luca Macchiarulo: as uh as our chip can. Um, So this said, I just want to present very quickly the what there's the general architecture of our chips uh our chips are uh um are basically doing uh a sampling uh have a sampling sales a series of sampling sales, one hundred and twenty-eight in in all the chips we're discussing today uh that periodically, save that information still in on in analog format into a much larger number of storage sales, four thousand and ninety-six for Udc, and
Luca Macchiarulo: thirty-two K. And sixteen K. For our rug. Before and Then when a a trigger arrives, someone is interested in the port in all, or a portion of this data uh that gets converted using a uh Wilkinson type uh a a analog to the Utah converter in groups of sixty-four that then get uh uh exported, the either stored locally in a static ram or exported to the star to the external work.
Luca Macchiarulo: The uh um, the two uh chips that i'm uh talking about today at this specification. There they use a very similar core. This. So the uh analog performance is expected to be quite quite close, and we're actually testing both. And this seems to uh, uh seems to be correct. Uh, one is tensor uh sixteen channels, but as a smaller smaller Uh um uh smaller memory analog memory of four thousand ninety-six um, the other one uh arbug there actually two version of the V. Three that
Luca Macchiarulo: i'm talking about them tested, and the V four with it as just being a uh a fabricated that is an eight channel device. Both of them can operate a ten giga sample per second. The analog band with Udc is between one and two is actually closer to one, and it's under evaluation. We expected it to be a bit higher. The for the Rv. Three is one point three, and for the ar. But before is expected to be over two gigahertz, because we other than input buffer for that.
Luca Macchiarulo: Um. The other important uh uh consideration here. The dice size here is uh they're pretty similar. They're all around twenty-five, twenty-eight to twenty-nine millimeter square. Uh They the ubc can fit in a in a relatively small nine by nine millimeter package, with the sixty-four inputs. The Our work is now currently out in a in a larger package, but uh, a smaller package uh is also possible. So um,
Luca Macchiarulo: I I I don't really want to dwell on this particular slide. But the idea of the theory of operation of Udc is is important, because it it contrasts with what the arbor does. The The The Udc. Has been designed, not with this application in my, but for single shot or slow rate experiments. So the way that udc works is that we uh that is continuously sampled and stored in round Robin fashion in in uh thirty two windows of sixty-four samples, and then, after reception of an acquired, which is basically a trigger.
Luca Macchiarulo: Everything gets digitized, stored internally in the static ram, and we're waits for the for an external uh request for all the data to be shifted out so effectively. It's a slave device never in chase an operation, and it has a fairly long uh fairly long uh time to uh to export all the data because of the way that that was uh uh the the type of application uh that our uh uh that was designed for. Uh. So here is a is a Is it just a digital simulation of the
of the type of rates that you expect? It's as you see, It's very slow. We're talking about
Luca Macchiarulo: millisecond range between one event and the next. But keep in mind that this is for a digitizing and and and transmitting the entire four thousand ninety-six multiplied by a uh by by sixteen channel um channel information. If we we we could potentially modify this to uh to have a to out, just to observe it, much smaller version. So it, for example, in the in the best case where we could look at the single window and a single channel we could be uh, we could read out with with as little as thirteen
Luca Macchiarulo: microseconds. Um! This is just a a general a view of the floor, plan and size. You see that the their eight channel per size and the large portion of the of the device is actually taking by this local static ram which are needed for this application, but they can be either eliminated or significantly reduced for the uh uh, the rates uh rate centric applications which are more interested for L. I. Pd. Use
Luca Macchiarulo: um just a couple of that example here. Uh we need to do a a voltage calibration uh exactly as that that needs to be done. For example, by the Dr. S four after voltage calibration we get to a a little bit over one count uh uh one Count Adc uh error. The Uh. This is an example of a a waveform compared to a to a oscilloscope uh capture of a fairly fast uh output from a photo diode
Luca Macchiarulo: uh like uh, you see, it's a smaller than one nanosecond uh um with uh, and there's also interchannel timing measurements that show that we can get to the uh with an rms of uh of the order of ten of ten picoseconds, ten, ten, fifteen people seconds. So in summary this chip, as two big advantages is relatively dense, sixteen channeling nine by nine package uh for a footprint, which is a pretty small. Uh
Luca Macchiarulo: ah per pixel. Now, this does not take into account supporting electronics. Um, external amplifiers, if you need Regulators clock redistribution riding constraints, and so on, but at least he's going into the right direction. He gives good timing performance expected in ten Pico second range, based on the experience with the arbor, which has the same structure. Ah, the same basic channel. Ah, moderate power consumption in the thirty thirty five molecules per channel, simple serial, interfacing in the present, they on chip digital storage, which might be useful for certain applications. One
Luca Macchiarulo: uh the disadvantages, as mentioned at the low rate which can be which it can be corrected fairly easily, and especially the dead time. So once we doing the digitization, we cannot do sampling um. And this this is probably the the the major disadvantage of this particular type of architecture, and also it does a fairly complex clocking scheme. The Rv. Three, which is the other type of chip, is A. As a different philosophy. Uh this the V three has only four channels, but as a much more complicated the
Luca Macchiarulo: um digital control that allows us to uh to digitize only the portion of the particular interval which is centered by triggers. The trigger can be locally generated. So we have an in a discriminator that that generates a trigger. We have a Roy Mall, the Roy Mall, the region of interest mode that basically uses the internal discriminators to indicate the specific sub region in the interval of interest to where we uh, where we really want to digitize, so reducing further, doing more zero suppression on the data.
Luca Macchiarulo: And Finally, it has a banking system that permits permits simultaneous sampling and and digitization. So in terms of theory of operation compared to the Udc. This is designed for more more design for high-rate. Ah! Experiments in ah ah independent streaming mode. So the the device once is ah is configured works as a as a master device and data is ah is is sent out as soon as the the the final digitization is Ah is Ah is Ah is sent out as soon as the the the final digitization is Ah is ah is Ah is sent out as soon as the the the final digitization is Ah is Ah is Ah is sent out as soon as the the the final digitization is Ah is Ah is Ah is sent out as soon as the the the final digitization is ah is ah is ah is sent out as soon as the the the final digitization is ah
Luca Macchiarulo: is completed, and because of the banking system, the acquisition and disordination can can occur at the same time.
Luca Macchiarulo: Uh, just a word of the next generation uh version of the ship which is already being fabricated. This is actually a picture that we took yesterday for the first time that we just received this uh before, and the main difference here is This is an eight channel device, and it has a also an input, buffer that operates is actually designed for around four gigahertz. Uh, we expect to operate at least over two gigahertz um, and that increases the bandwidth reduces some some internal effects, but potentially it could be a base for a design for a
Luca Macchiarulo: uh for a for an in in chip amplifier,
Luca Macchiarulo: and the advantages and disadvantage of the arebark are kind of a complementary to the to the Udc. So it does. The cell, triggering, streaming capability potentially can cope to a high rate. But as we estimate something like one hundred and fifty uh kilohertz per single channel events per chip, and all full eight channels read out at around one hundred kilohertz um that time free operation, and there's also Pls call clocking scheme that reduces the need for A for a for
reference blocks
Luca Macchiarulo: uh the disadvantages. There's a higher power consumption for the V three. We We are measuring thirty me what per channel and the larger footprint two times the Udc. For the Red four so ideally for the La Pd. We would like to put the the together the advantage of these two, so that that density and the power, consumption, or even less, from from Udc and from our bark, the uh uh self triggering, streaming high rate uh uh and potential input uh amplification capability. And we believe that this kind of uh meeting is possible mostly because
Luca Macchiarulo: the uh, some of the the the issues are related to having a very large uh, very long. Uh um analog buffer, which is that might not be needed in most of the lap Pd. Applications. So uh one uh last consideration about the the The Boards Board design that for to use this ship we do believe the Board Level integration is essential to fully harness the Uh Channel density, the timing uh to to make sure that handles timing distribution, power, distribution
Luca Macchiarulo: uh system, level integration, dialer concentration properly. We have a few experience integrating with those chips that I will quickly present. Hyper was a project uh which uh, which uh! Gave rise to the board shown on the on the right here. Uh uh! That was meant to read a a full uh uh genuine la pd tile, and as actually fabricated, and we got good results. Um, with the uh twenty pico second timing from from one end to the other end to the strip for uh
Luca Macchiarulo: for good uh uh positioning um uh uh expositioning uh determination on the on the la Pd. Um. This other product to the Dsa. C a plus is actually in a channel device, a kind of a a smaller version of the hyper, if you will, because that as a an input, amplification of Db. And a, and two and two uh R. V. Three, which means uh, eight channels, that uh, that fits into a smaller box, six by four by one,
Luca Macchiarulo: and finally with the Udc. We have a ninety-six channel device uh that fits in the smaller twelve by four by one uh box, and and uh, it can be a can be interface externally with the uh. We we're actually developing all the all the setup for uh um, a firmware. And also software uh, the the the software that we uh we have can actually offer an easy to use interface uh for the first time, user and also to to explore some capabilities.
Luca Macchiarulo: So we we are envisioning some of this boards as uh uh as prototyping boards, to verify whether the use of these uh of these devices is a convenient for the uh for the applications, so that the that the user is interested in. So, in conclusion, the we we do believe that the way from digitizing uh integrated circuit can be a robust and flexible solution for redoubtable A Pd. Based detectors that get all the way down to like ten picoseconds of timing resolution, the uh current version of
Luca Macchiarulo: So the digitizer already cover most of the strong in the La Pd. If you accept this kind of hybridization concept that I mentioned um. The small variations uh uh should be able should be done with relatively moderate half for it. That is, we do not really need a new uh cheap architecture development to uh to really meet these goals. Um, the uh, The The optimized Board integration will be essential for a leveraging the capabilities. Um, and, as mentioned, it would be great to uh to be able
Luca Macchiarulo: to interface with people who are using lapd, and and might be uh might be using this devices in order to uh uh, in order to test uh uh, both the la Pd. And and especially verify validate that that the uh, the devices are a a a good viable alternative for this type of readout
Luca Macchiarulo: um and uh, as a as a last note, I just want to know, to to mention that the uh, the developments uh all started from each A. P. And P. But we we believe that they can also benefit directly uh adjacent, Feel like a time of like it. Um. Thanks for thanks for your attention, and um i'm ready for for answer. Not sure if I
Luca Macchiarulo: took too much of my all the time.
Alexander Kiselev: Yeah, thank you, Lucas. And this is very comprehensive. Um. The program, of course, is that they probably have a dozen of questions. We would need to go slide by slide for a comprehensive discussion, and we certainly don't have this time now. So the main question for me is what is actually path forward uh
Alexander Kiselev: all these, you know, to make it into a
Alexander Kiselev: So what what is? Yeah,
Luca Macchiarulo: Yeah, no, uh sorry.
Alexander Kiselev: So th. This is probably the only question which I have time to ask you, and let me ask you a second question. So, for example, you mentioned the valuation boards, and we are we We are willing, since quite some time to. So if you show this like twenty two, I think it was um twenty-three, maybe
Luca Macchiarulo: the was the hyper,
Luca Macchiarulo: but this was actually for the for the genuine lapd, so it might be not as relevant as uh twenty-three is just a small uh is the small to uh for a a channel device.
Alexander Kiselev: We somehow are not getting there. So what what is the path for right now? So should there be some initiative on the Eic project? If we think about the I see specifically, or one hundred and fifty,
Kevin Flood: I I am online. Um, I would have to say, Alexander, that all of your other questions that are un asked right now. Matter a lot in that context.
Kevin Flood: Um, we can. Certainly. You know you've seen what uh Luca has here. Uh, and we have, you know, internally discussed um the Ic. And other needs uh quite a bit. Um, but the the devil is in the details here. This is, you know. Um, I think, as everybody has shown, that the um,
Kevin Flood: the technical challenges uh to, you know, ringing the best performance out of the La Pds require more or less a comprehensive approach, You know, to each element of this kind of vertical stack that's required um to get. You know that performance out.
Kevin Flood: I I can't really answer your question other than that. I'm willing to you
Kevin Flood: work with you to frame. Uh what would be an appropriate um set of requirements uh, and a path forward based on those uh in the eic context. Um, And that's, you know, obviously a much longer discussion. Uh for, but I can tell you so. What worries me. And this is probably my last comment so. And Thomas is online. So what always
Alexander Kiselev: is that after all these preliminary conversations, So somehow I don't see any single digitizer um R. And D request or proposal which was accepted in here the hundred nine. So this basic development, if I understand correctly, and somehow it it looks like this um
Alexander Kiselev: integration of this type of you know the electronics into. Yes, you just got sold at some point. So am I right, for we are moving in the right direction.
Kevin Flood: I I cannot speak for the eic, and the way that the project is is managing the the resources and schedule, you know. That is their job. Um, we can try and match that. But um, we we you know we're obviously following that. We can't drive that path. We are a receptive
Kevin Flood: um We have um, you know, engaged with the Rd. One hundred and nine uh with the with the Hp. Dirk folks uh Lgats folks and other people. Um, but
Kevin Flood: we have not found that there is a um, a common project denominator other than Erd, one hundred and nine, and that subsumes, you know, basically all of the Dac electronics uh under it, and it's It's simply up to the project. I can't answer.
Alexander Kiselev: Yeah, yeah, I think we should take this off, but it sounds to me that I mean The presentation like this, with all the parties present in one room should just take place sometimes in zoom, because otherwise, uh, uh, we, we are not the kind of
Kevin Flood: No, I would agree with that. We We can certainly do that.
Junqi Xie: Okay, Okay.
Matthew Malek: So actually, my question was more or less answered Um, by in in the discussion around Alexander's question. So in the interest of time. Um, I I can put the high level question down. I may have some more queries, but I can get in touch with uh Kevin or Luca independently to go into the details.
Bernhard: Okay, thanks. Here's Bernard. Can I just ask a technical question. And this may open a can of worms. So you can cut me short. And that is about input
Bernhard: input impedance to the chips, because uh, nothing actually forces us to use fifty Ohms, and, in fact, because the Mcp is a constant charge source, it is actually much more advantageous to be driving into a higher Mps to get more pulse energy.
Bernhard: So it would require redesigning the front and to have a higher input impedance.
Luca Macchiarulo: Uh well, the the the main question there is, uh is a combination, at least, in my opinion, is the uh, the the potential effect uh of uh, of uh, what the high input is be, this will do to the uh um to the pull, shape right, or to the to the timing, because the the bandwidth is is going to go down if we if we consider the capacitance of the of the input
Luca Macchiarulo: so that there's always a little bit of balancing act there. Um, that. Yeah. Well, I mean, this is going to lead too far for this discussion. But, guys, I would like to get into a discussion with you like privately about this.
Junqi Xie: Alright, our time is amazing. So uh, thank you, Luca. And next next speaker, we are being a new about the aid. When you go ahead.
Anil Mane: Yeah, Okay, So can you listen me?
Junqi Xie: Yeah, You go ahead and everything's a good Yeah, I'm: A slides in a presentation. One
Anil Mane: slides are in the presentation. What?
Anil Mane: No, they are not okay now.
Anil Mane: Oh, it's good. Yes, Thank you. Um. Yeah. So my name is Daniel Monet, along with the Jpil. Um. We are from Argon, and what we are doing here last ten to twelve years uh working on
Anil Mane: uh ald coatings, A will be stand for atomic clarity, position, method, and we make materials or Mcps and uh, with the support of high energy physics office of basic science. Uh: from do as well as nuclear
Anil Mane: in a twenty-two funding. We are still in this uh research, thanks to them.
Anil Mane: Uh. So, as you know. Uh, there are great talks from the morning uh this morning, and now till now I learn a lot of new things, but I feel that, uh the development of Ald Mcp need to be also
Anil Mane: uh projected in a you know, as a main topic, because there are a lot of things we can do in terms of material, wise. And as you are expert in this detectors testing and electronics, and so on.
Anil Mane: Uh, I will not go in much detail about uh those area, but focusing on how we make those M. Cps at a small scale, whereas larger scale and so on.
Anil Mane: Uh. So not only the detector aspect that M. Cpu. But there are many other areas where in city can be used like nitrogen device, cameras, time of flight measurements, and so on. So what we do is uh,
Anil Mane: we uh take a capillary glass array that is, supply by income. We work closely with income uh, and some other uh projects also. Uh, So we take this capillary glass Sorry, which is the boro silicate glass, and we put these different kind of coatings
Anil Mane: uh to make this capillary class are into Mcp
Anil Mane: uh like uh
Anil Mane: function. So we'll put two coatings. One is registered protein that generate electrostatic potential across the channel, and then second one is the mesh reporting whether it's Mgo calcium fluoride solar aluminum. You can name it. We can make those quoting depend upon the
Anil Mane: uh, what gain and the material quality you are looking into. So once we put these coatings uh, we uh again test those Mcp here at Argon, and, you know, collaboration with the Berkeley and income and uh high Energy Physics group here at Argon And
Anil Mane: the main point here is by doing this we are now not limited with the Uh lead glass registrants as well as secondary electron emission property, because right now. We have two different quoting, and I can
Anil Mane: zoom those different porting property according to the Uh Project requirement, and the process is low cost Uh, we can do in a batch processing. It's a led free grass.
Anil Mane: And uh, there are very strong reserves that excellent stability. Uh, I like their talk previously that they have tested even three hundred Coulomb charge extraction, so that the Mcp perform very well here.
Anil Mane: But to get that Mcp we need a right to register coating and the range that all these high energy physics, nuclear physics, experiment, people work at low temperature and high temperature or uh room temperature application.
Anil Mane: You need that right resistance range, which is around ten to six, ten to nine uh um centimeter kind of resistivity. So along this line uh, we have developed a couple of uh chemistries that
Anil Mane: we can tune the resistance, and two of them are very frequently used. In the microchannel plate is the chemistry, one, and chemistry, two, which is chemistry. One is the tungsten best, and chemistry two is a Mol D numbers, and the we can dial the resistivity according to the range that we need.
Anil Mane: So once we dial the resistivity, we can apply that on the Ncp. I already mentioned this couple of uh properties, but as you saw the Mcp use very high gain because of different secondary electron emission coatings. Then the lead oxide
Anil Mane: uh hydrogen fired glass and very low background count almost one fourth of the commercially available. That's what I learn over the time. Excellent, long, long term stability, and there are,
Anil Mane: uh, this is a presentation we saw from uh afternoon to till now that get a very uh tenx kind of uh picosecond time resolution.
Anil Mane: So small scale uh development is much simple. One can say that. Oh, I can get the ald reactor and just fire it. Those but goal here is to develop this large area photo detector, and I think This is the one of the challenging topic that we have resolved so far
Anil Mane: and successfully. We quote this: a large area, twenty by twenty centimeter, Mcp.
Anil Mane: And demonstrated many uh uh papers and presentation, and uh, also income uh is now making commercial product, which is available. Nonetheless, these are, uh meeting all the expectations that uh commercial Mcp can have,
Anil Mane: and with that we can not only restrict ourselves to small form factor, but we can do curly and cities secular squares ten by ten centimeter, which is interest to electron, I and collider projects, and so on, and many other applications that we work with collaboration with the income uh Uc. Berkeley and
Anil Mane: uh, so all this process take time, and I think uh each chemistry uh making uh films, testing analysis. And all this taking time. So last three, four years we are develop this uh in two Ldmcp tool, which is very uh state of the art. In a way,
Anil Mane: we can uh deposit material on Mcp in this particular chamber, where we introduce precursors and make these coatings, and then transfer into this testing chamber, which is decide,
Anil Mane: and in a real time. By layer by layer, basically we can measure the gain coming out of this Mcp: And with this there is a no airbreak. Look uh car, car, car, carbon, dioxide or moisture, contamination, and so on,
Anil Mane: So we can do much faster screening of any early porting that we are interested in, that. With that we can figure out what is the minimum Thickness is needed to get a maximum gain.
Anil Mane: Or here is the case of Mg. Here is another case of alumina, where we can know what is the thickness is needed. But again, depend upon the secondary electron emission coefficient. You can get different gain numbers, and this is we can done for many chemistry like here calcium, fluoride, magnesium, fluoride alumina,
Anil Mane: and we can get very high gain around ten to six ten to four. Uh depend upon the chemistry. This is for single Mcp. Again. What I am showing here is
Anil Mane: at the same time we have, uh, since we are, do a depositing material on this complex for a substant. We are much more focused on understanding the uniformity of these coatings, and we have prosper screen uh that we can quickly test whether quoting is uniform or Apache or non-inform.
Anil Mane: So we can do all sort of those measurements in the this Chamber. Uh, Now, next topic here is we are also looking for now, instead of uh capillary glass that income is making. We are also seeing the approach of D printed Ncp: It is very early stage. It is not at fully developed.
Anil Mane: But this is another way of making micro-channel plate and putting ald coating on that. And a while ago we have uh
Anil Mane: presented this in aly conference, and you can see that this cost first screen, which means it's The electrons are coming out of top of one this three D. Printed Mcp: So this is a uh, Another alternative approach that we are looking for. Second uh approach is uh, since we know now how we can make Mcps, and there are other talk from uh uh University
Anil Mane: uh Arlington. I think uh that about the memory uh this I am feedback, and so on. So in that regards we are also.
Anil Mane: While I looked at the how we can make this membrane that can go on top of M. Cps, and here are the Uh cross Section S. Cm. Or whether S. C. M. Image, that you can see that this post, twenty micron force cover with the and feedback layer of alumina. So uh, technically, we can uh quote the large area, silicon, wafer, and or proper substrate. We can lift this
Anil Mane: barrier and transfer on these uh, so we have a bunch of ips on that. Most importantly, it's not only barrier uh quoting for I and feedback, but we can even define the electron emission. That is, first time
Anil Mane: after photoelectron, the heating, or the Mcp Inlet side, which is called first. Try to correct. Uh, we can even may look into those areas. This membrane can be neutral, sensitive membrane. So then, as Mcp can be used for neutron detection, so we are looking into those areas, too. So, as I mentioned
Anil Mane: that we are working on Uh. Mcps for various application, and one of the thing is the uh temperature coefficient of resistance of these M Cp. So that high energy, physics, community or uh nuclear physics uh nuclear engineering and physics, community can use these detectors at different temperatures. Uh, and for that
Anil Mane: we have developed a variety of different settings that can give you different kind of temperature, coefficient of resistance. And we can tune that
Anil Mane: by adjusting the different material, whether it is uh keeping aluminum oxide, matrix same and met metal uh component changing. And we can change the Tcr. Or in other case you can fix the metal component and uh introduce different dielectrics to make this resist you composite coding. Accordingly, we can tune that is, yeah uh. In a reality we should have a Tcr as close to zero. But this again depend upon the range
Anil Mane: uh Mcps are two conducting. Then there will be thermal runaway, and the short circuit will be there. But again, we can dial that in that line recently.
Anil Mane: Uh, we have learned also in c. Two measurement where we can now dial the uh temperature coefficient of resistance, major in a real time, and also at higher side and lower side, and this is one of the lowest T. Cr: We got it.
Anil Mane: You are much better than the commercially available M. Cities from for Tanas and Hamas to that. Uh, we can get it with this quoting anyone, this uh low temperature application. Uh, you can see that up to minus one hundred degrees C
Anil Mane: uh, we have tested these Ncps and other side. We have tested uh, up to two hundred degrees here, and we can get a low uh Tcr. And this Tcr. Also can be dialed according to the chemistry, the precursor, the way we make it, and the temperature of the deposition.
Anil Mane: So last but least, uh, since we talk about lot of about secondary electron emission, coefficient, which is use more gain. But at the same time we are also uh depositing this registry quoting, and it takes time to understand the chemistry
Anil Mane: as well as optimize the resistance, according to the M. City, that you can operate around one thousand or twelve hundred volts. Uh. Recently we uh doing in C two real time measurement of dialing resistance
Anil Mane: uh of the process. It means we can do much faster screening of you and resist you quoting that way. More productivity will be there and so on. In that regards there are two data points I would like to share his. Here is a two hundred degree c. Process, which is we called K. One, and then here is a three hundred degree C process, which called again came one
Anil Mane: point: Whatever number you can give, but two different uh processes gives me exactly right resistance range that is needed for Ncp. And in this one case at two hundred degrees, c. I need roughly twenty to twenty-five cycles of super cycles, where in other case I just need ten cycles. It means I am cutting my processing time by half,
Anil Mane: which is good for income, because they can produce more M. Cities, and in a faster way, which is the efficient way of producing the more M. Cities. So at this.
Anil Mane: So what we are basically doing again, this is a summary that, uh, what we are doing at our gun that we are understanding the A. D. And Cp. Baseline process issues that occur during the production
Anil Mane: uh working closely with income and try to share their in our knowledge, and they are also, uh, you know, you know, synergy way. We are also developing processes, understanding new chemistry for next generation. Mcps.
Anil Mane: Uh, we are exploring A: because uh, when you change these precursor molecules, you get a different material. So you get a different uh secondary electron emission properties. Uh, we are also developing, developing efficient hardware or processing m cities faster.
Anil Mane: Uh: we are also studying contamination. Uh, in fact, ambient effect, like a open end detector that, uh people are using in a space application, or, you know, in a vacuum chamber. And uh, of course, we are also making new ways of making electron amplifying structure.
Anil Mane: And all these knowledge, uh, technically, we are sharing with income. And uh,
Anil Mane: uh, in a Synergetic way, and we are very helpful for their support as well as support from high energy physics. Uh: so take our message from this particular presentation. Is Ald. Is a backbone for L. A. Pd. And I believe that
Anil Mane: uh, we need to focus also not only the current uh lap, Pd. Chemistries, and so on. But we need to invest more in uh future M. Cities that can help whether it is in under magnetic field or past timing or developing very high again in Cp. And so on.
Anil Mane: So with that. I like to, thanks uh our funding agency office of uh science, particularly high energy physics, uh and uh, National nuclear nuclear security agency and income. And thank you for your attention, and giving me opportunity to present
Anil Mane: uh ald work that we are doing at our done last one year I will be happy to answer questions and take your suggestions.
Junqi Xie: Thank you and you. And as a vendor I you have a question
Jerry Vavra: we obtained
Jerry Vavra: from
Jerry Vavra: uh the tube
Jerry Vavra: with a two L. Ald coatings,
Jerry Vavra: and he found that the Mcp. Started to produce light
Jerry Vavra: around ten to the sixth gain,
Jerry Vavra: and he was asking whether I have seen something like that. Then my answer was,
Jerry Vavra: No, I was not clever enough to put another Pmt to look at.
Jerry Vavra: However,
Jerry Vavra: I did test two failed tubes from Lz Experiment
Jerry Vavra: found that they failed because at certain voltage they started to shine light.
Jerry Vavra: So my question to you
Anil Mane: uh that's a very good question, I think income uh, and we discuss that a topic, and we will look a different kind of coatings and some passwording layers. So we are working on that. But so far we have not seen that kind of stuff. Uh, unless until very high end
Anil Mane: uh testing that uh, all this high energy physics works are doing. Maybe they can answer, but metal point of view. We will definitely resolve this issue by adding different kind of material, at least, that I am interested in. So what I would say is that people who are testing uh these tubes
Jerry Vavra: should include
Anil Mane: another Pmt into the that test set up to check for this because you will never find out. Yeah, definitely, I think as you have seen this, and there may be chances that uh, But again, what we are doing at here
Anil Mane: uh what I understand quotas, and uh, you and Hamas we are doing ald coding, not the resistive quoting. So at this moment the question will come to whether it is only secondary electron emission quoting that they are putting, or it is a
Anil Mane: complete St. That uh what we are doing at with income, and we need to test those lights. And with Mark Probecki and I think, uh other colleagues, we are looking that issue very thoroughly. May I comment on this. Okay, yes.
Albert Lehmann: But it's showing up in magnesium oxide coatings. So any experience and or any idea why magnesium oxide should
Albert Lehmann: emit photons during the uh amplification process in addition to electrons. Obviously, because this is simply the reason why this why all this uh dark count rate goes up suddenly at certain uh against. So it it really explodes at a certain point.
Anil Mane: So I think this is Again, Both questions are well taken, and if Mj. Is sensitive to this uh put on emission. We ha! Which is again, Mj. Gives highest game. That's why we are putting, but at the same time we have alternative chemistry like
Anil Mane: sodium fluoride and some other chemistry. We We are exploring that, and hopefully uh with income and and I think testing. Take a lot of time. That's so only caviar here. But making Mcp now is much faster. So me and Mark will work on that particular topic. And hopefully,
Anil Mane: within a couple of months you will have answer at least, which chemistry is not emitting light.
Anil Mane: Any other question.
Alexander Kiselev: Yeah, uh a quick one. Um. So what what are the limitations of three d printing. So um size area size, I think four diameter. We can shrink size or so, but it's a timing that takes printing, because uh, in a reality.
Anil Mane: Uh, we need a larger form factor right now. We are doing uh um
Anil Mane: centimeters square uh so square or star current, and it takes pretty time because of uh single photon uh laser writing process. So I think. Uh, there is another company here with Uh, I think Jun key is work, and we are also part of their uh uh Sbi program. They are looking into this. The goal here is to make larger form actual. That's a limitation I see right now, but they are working on a bigger size printer,
Anil Mane: which will print uh larger area, and I think once for me as a material science point of view. If you view me any substrate, and you want to make this electron amplification, we can do that but right this moment.
Alexander Kiselev: I'm waiting for substrate. If you have anything i'll be happy to, you know, I understand. But my question was more, of course, I think, is an issue, but at some point with three d printing. So if you go down to Micron Resolution?
Alexander Kiselev: Yes, yes, but I mean in theory, so you could do other things so you could. Let's say,
Anil Mane: shape up a channel uh like a We go instead of producing guys, and as exact and uh channel it on kind of you know, those those things are possible. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Uh, It's the only I think the I think speed is the right now slowing us.
Anil Mane: But uh, that's the goal of this Sdi are that they want to get it to the next level of uh making larger winter. Okay, thank you.
Junqi Xie: Any other question.
Junqi Xie: I didn't see more questions. So let's go to the next one is Co: Thank you for your
Junqi Xie: all right. Can everyone see my screen?
Cole Hamel: Good.
Junqi Xie: Alright. Hello! I'm. Col. Hamil,
Cole Hamel: You can't see my screen. No, I need it. Okay. Okay. Sorry. Hello. I'm Cole Hamil, Senior Associate Research scientist here at income. And we're talking about uh, i'll be talking about my upcoming
Cole Hamel: uh sbi. Our proposal, which is Uh. L. Ipds and Hrpd uh upgrades to uh our fast photos sensors for eic applications.
Cole Hamel: So we'll start with five things you need to know about L. A. Pd. Or Hrpd. Which is the sensors that we've been talking about all day, which are offered both incapacitly coupled and direct weed out sensor formats
Cole Hamel: uh the frugal price. So eic in particular, wants a volume of about two hundred units, and so we can get down to a price at that point, or about twenty thousand dollars per lapd or Hrpd
Cole Hamel: uh for manufacturing scale up. Uh, I want to make it clear that income does have the experience and infrastructure to fully support manufacturing scale up to ensure high quality, tile delivery well in advance of eic and other program needs in terms of technical specifications. We've been over it a lot today, but
Cole Hamel: L. A. Ppd. And Hrpd. Already meet most photosensor requirements for many physics experiments.
Cole Hamel: Um. But this pending Sbi, or application that I just submitted last week will address critical developments for eic and other physics programs.
Cole Hamel: So the sensors. I just briefly wanted to show um an example of a signal board that Alexander Kissleev used um in this beam line trial. So he already talked mostly about this about this, but I just wanted to show that he did see
Cole Hamel: uh Turing top signals using a custom Tcb board, and that is the customer with a capacity coupled L. A. Pd. Or Hrpd.
Cole Hamel: Um. You can make your own custom single signal boards, and use them. However, you want
Cole Hamel: so frugal price volume price discounts for L. A. Tpds and Hrpds are available today.
Cole Hamel: Um and we also like to split out our bear tile cost
Cole Hamel: uh which is thirty-five thousand dollars currently for one device versus our customer services uh cost. So uh, this cost is eventually going to uh decrease over time as we get to high volume manufacturing
Cole Hamel: um, but we break out the tile cost to give a better idea of what the actual la Pd. Uh device price will be at high volume.
Cole Hamel: Um.
Cole Hamel: So we anticipate that at full manufacturing speed. So if we get an order for two hundred units for Eic, for example, for other programs we expect to price uh
Cole Hamel: between thirty and twenty thousand dollars per like Tpd, which can be fifty-two dollars per square centimeter
Cole Hamel: for an L. A Pd. And for really high volume manufacturer, where, uh our scale up is independently funded, we could, we should be able to get down to a divine uh, uh price per device of ten thousand dollars.
Cole Hamel: So what do you get for all these customer services? So first and foremost is technical support.
Cole Hamel: Um, as many of the presenters today can tell you. We offer broad technical support for our customers, both before they order in Lit, Pd. And after we'll meet with you multiple times, will
Cole Hamel: you know, if you happen to have an La Pd. That fails in a beam line and at Cern, on over a long holiday weekend turns out we can scramble to get you a new device uh within a couple of days.
Cole Hamel: Um, we offer in-house workshops. So if you want to come uh spend a couple of days of income and actually get hands on experience with an L. A. Pd. Or an Hr Pd. You can schedule that uh reach out to a representative from income, and we can get that scheduled.
Um. Every la Pd comes from A with a full, comprehensive test report.
Cole Hamel: Um! We offer swaps. Uh, if you have an early prototype uh Annie, for example, is taken advantage of this. They were our first L. A. Ppd. Customer, and we're set to replace uh the first L. A. Ppd. We sent them uh next month, so that because the first L. I. Pd. Is just not up to par with what we can make today,
Cole Hamel: and we also do a lot of work to make sure that we can export the lap Pd. To your country if it's not the Us. And that your country can import the La Pd.
Cole Hamel: Um. So
Cole Hamel: Google Price requires a manufacturing scale up just to say that uh income. We've been in business for fifty years. We've about two hundred employees that work on a variety of things, not just the La. Pd. And that gives the company as a whole yearly sales of thirty million dollars. We've got multiple facilities across the Us.
Cole Hamel: The bottom line here is that we've done scale up for other product lines before, and we can do it for the la Pd.
Cole Hamel: Um. So this is an example of an applications. This is the Eic Lepton, N. Cap. There's a couple of different um
Cole Hamel: um detector solutions possible. They each have an active area of about one square meter, so using an lapd with six millimeter capacitive couple of pixels that'd be a about a thousand readout channels per lpd
Cole Hamel: um to cover with square meter. Takes only twenty-five la pds at twenty thousand dollars each. This is half a million dollars, and at room temperature these have a dark rate of less than two kilohertz per square centimeter
Cole Hamel: versus a sip them. So if you have a twenty, six by twenty, six millimeter, sip them, which is a eight by eight array of three millimeter pixels.
Cole Hamel: Um.
Cole Hamel: You need about one thousand five hundred siblings uh like this to cover a square meter, and the price is about the same to a twenty thousand dollar L a Pd. And on top of that, of course, symptoms need to be cooled uh to minus twenty-five C to bring dark rates down to an acceptable level.
Cole Hamel: So uh, we're doing a lot of critical developments to ensure that uh la Pd gets better and better for our customers. So ongoing developments that we've discussed today so currently. Most of our lapds have twenty micron pores, but we're slowly making prototypes with ten micron pores
Cole Hamel: uh The latest one came out last week. So this is ongoing development. We've talked about our glass body with a five millimeter anode, but we've developed a ceramic body with a two millimeter thick anodes that gives you stronger capacity coupled signals, because it's a thinner, and also because ceramic has a higher dielectric constant than glass.
Cole Hamel: Um, so that will give better performance,
Cole Hamel: and as we mentioned before June, she had this talk about B. Field tolerance. So I won't. Go
Cole Hamel: to in depth with that. But just that we're going back early next year to um verify, validate, and expand those be field tests.
Cole Hamel: Um! As we've said before, we do get uh up to one Tesla. The gain does fall by over a factor of ten, but by increasing voltages we can bring the gain up.
Cole Hamel: We talked about um
Cole Hamel: building the lap Pd. In the magnetic field, and how again changes with that! But how for this Gen. One device we had to read out over multiple strips. And So that's something else that we're going to have to test again early next year.
Cole Hamel: And so getting to my sbir. So um this Sbi proposal that's currently awaiting a validation by the Us. Department of Energy. Um. So the main focus focuses are to redshift the photo cathode quantum efficiency.
Cole Hamel: So we can get comparable uh photon detection efficiency to symptoms at four hundred and fifty nanometers. We're going to continue to do life testing work. Um, uh with the uta. So if our geese already talked about that they've demonstrated five columns per centimeter squared of lifetime.
Cole Hamel: So we're going to validate and expand those results to push it past five coulombs to see what happens Uh, we're also going to um. Send them a device with our new red shifted photo cap notes. They can life test That
Cole Hamel: uh Vincenzo explained. Much better than I can that the
Cole Hamel: um with when exposed to twenty Gev protons um shows very little uh game change. We're also interested in electronic read out as Nailu already talked about.
Cole Hamel: Um. So the Hrpd. The Dc. Coupled version has a thousand channels per device
Cole Hamel: Um, And so nailu is currently the front runner in practical ways to read out that many channels with their Dsa one thousand and ninety-six which has ninety-six channels per device.
Cole Hamel: Um So we're going to be testing that. I'll bring that up more later on, And Alexei is going to give a talk about changing the form factor. So for Annie, who was our first customer. They didn't really care about putting two Lapps right next to each other, but Eic and i'm sure many other programs do care about that quite a bit.
Cole Hamel: So we're going to increase the active area and decrease the folk footprint of the lapds that we can uh do closer tiling of our devices.
Cole Hamel: Um! So to get into the arrow jail spectrum. So on the left we have a qe spectrum for lapd one hundred and twenty-six, and we want to uh redshift this a little bit so currently. The peak is at three hundred and sixty-five nanometers. Uh, but, as you see, in the middle. Uh, this is from the Panda forward. Rich detector.
Cole Hamel: Um! If you use an arrow gel radiator, you cut off most of your light below three hundred and fifty nanometers, and so to pick up more of that light we want to redshift our
Cole Hamel: uh qi spectrum, so that we can uh have higher Qi. At this four hundred to five hundred nanometer range uh, which puts it more towards the photon detection Efficiency of sip them, as we see on the right part of the Sbir is that we're going to actually directly measure photon detection, efficiency
Cole Hamel: um in an L. I. Pd. For the first time, which is something that we've just never directly measured
Cole Hamel: um. So Alexander showed uh his method of reading out two hundred and fifty-six channels of the Hrpd, which is the most that has ever been read out. So he's currently implementing this
Cole Hamel: um with pogo pins.
Cole Hamel: Um,
Cole Hamel: but what we're going to do here didn't come
Cole Hamel: because we're going to rent a Dsa e one hundred and ninety-six device from Nailu. They're going to make our custom one for us that only has sixty four channels, and they're going to make us a custom uh printed circuit board, or at least that's the plan according to this sbir,
Cole Hamel: so that we can read out sixty-four uh twenty-five millimeter pixels, and attach the circuit board directly to the La Pd connect this device to the circuit board um, and actually read out a whole L A. Pd. For the first time.
Cole Hamel: So in summary uh the sensors, we have,
Cole Hamel: uh direct-coupled hrpds, which we find useful for the dirk applications for the Ic. Capacity coupled Lapds and Hrpds for rich applications, and these are available today for rental or purchase. People have asked me, when could I rent an lap Pd. Or by an only Pd. We can send you a quote today
Cole Hamel: um
Cole Hamel: for Google Price. So our cost per unit area is already competitive with the existing technologies. But we're going to drive it down further manufacturing scale up.
Cole Hamel: If a program like Eic or others, needs hundreds of devices, income can deliver hundreds of devices
Cole Hamel: uh technical specifications, daily. Ppd. And Hrpd. Already meet most eic and other physics program requirements. But in terms of critical developments with support of this pending Sbi program, two
Cole Hamel: income will develop critical lip. Pd. And Hrpp. Improvements for optimal customized eic performance, but should also benefit other physics programs as well. Um. And so now it's. Uh, Alexi's talk. That's all I have. Thank you.
Junqi Xie: Thank you. Cool, Alex. Me,
Junqi Xie: I think you can share your screen. Now.
Yeah, go ahead.
Junqi Xie: Okay,
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): you need to unmute.
Mike Foley: Yeah, there, there you are, working on it, you mean, Do you give us a second place?
Junqi Xie: Okay,
Mike Foley: Some of us are on their desk somewhere in the conference room, and that's where he's at
Junqi Xie: all right. Can you hear me now? Just sir,
cole hamel: some technical difficulties. But uh, Well, my talk will be uh focused on them.
cole hamel: There is a kind of a There was lots of discussions about whether the
cole hamel: active area to of either really D Pd. Or Hrtp. Can be increased, because, as, for instance, Sylvia mentioned this morning all our morning uh that's
cole hamel: uh
cole hamel: the uh active area of all, together with the uh enclosure, and everything is not exceeding fifty. Uh. So that is uh pretty bad, for if one needs uh to tile those devices together,
cole hamel: I just wanna
oh,
cole hamel: so just to uh
cole hamel: some a general considerations about what what's defined, what we define as a active area fraction. So as you can see here,
cole hamel: uh active area Uh,
cole hamel: of the device is defined by the area of the for the Cathet
cole hamel: and the the Mcps uh under underneath the for the cathet that can be actively uh uh excited, and the signal can be read from this area.
cole hamel: So this uh, put some
cole hamel: a limitations on the on the overall active area
cole hamel: fraction, which is defined as a ratio of the un obscure detector area to the detective footprint.
cole hamel: So the tech their footprint is defined by this uh additional uh
cole hamel: a additional uh uh
cole hamel: obscure. The area of the device which
cole hamel: which includes uh Contact overlap for Mcps, then the side of the uh detector, and also the enclosure. Uh. In this talk I will be mostly focusing on the
cole hamel: reducing the sidewal in the contact overlap, because the enclosure can can be modified rather easily.
cole hamel: Uh. And of course, the main idea behind the uh minimizing the enclosure uh that that that area is to move all the power and the redou, the electro electrodes to the back side of the uh, either led or
so uh
cole hamel: at present,
cole hamel: and it can be well. At present the enclosure is far from being
final.
cole hamel: It's just something that would provide an adequate uh and the safe powering of the biasing of Lep, Pd. And the uh the mounting, the We don't work, but in the future the uh everything needs to be moved to the back side of the tile.
cole hamel: So without the enclosure. The active area fraction of Willie Vpd. Is about seventy, two percent
cole hamel: that includes uh uh, this
cole hamel: active area, minus the A. A. A. Divided by the area of this uh footprint
cole hamel: Uh, that includes Spicer
cole hamel: uh that overlaps with the Mcp. With the Mcps, then the side wall, and this uh uh wings that is sticking out from the right and the left hand side here that that provide a high power
cole hamel: uh high voltage uh contacts, and also grounding for the uh capacity coupled here. Not if it is capacity coupled, or uh there, there'll be a street line
cole hamel: uh re. It's straight lines. If there is a three plan read out so just to several features of the Ipds that will that we're already listed. So it's either available in the capacity or coupled uh version or street plan read out so it has a
cole hamel: uh. You can be glass of ceramic body with the ceramic body having a two millimeter thick Ceramic Annot and the Mcps are actually uh. Not so
cole hamel: uh.
cole hamel: It was actually larger than the then the the active area. They have two or three by two or three millimeter
cole hamel: uh.
cole hamel: So I
cole hamel: and the Msps are available, either with a ten micromores or a twenty microm course, and the ceramic lic pd body with the two millimeters thick, eh? Ceramic Annot is also available. It is is shown by the way, on the lower right.
cole hamel: Uh,
cole hamel: if we uh look at
cole hamel: at the presently this presently available. Uh Hrpd design.
cole hamel: It has a
cole hamel: uh gap that uh no, it has no spacers for structural support, as we had in the Lev Pd. You can see it needs a structure or the sweeps uh running across the uh, the active area to provide this of a other quick structural support for the window.
cole hamel: Uh: in in case of feature, P. Video, there is no structure. There is no need for structural support. Uh, because the window can, with the the atmosphere pressure is in its own.
cole hamel: So it's. Uh there is no spacers here uh,
cole hamel: no structural support. And uh, at present
cole hamel: uh Hrpd in this design that operates in the gap with simcp configuration. So there's uh the Mc. Is a start back to back with no gap in between.
cole hamel: Uh It uses uh one, eight, but by one eight millimetre Ncp size, and as of now, it is exclusively available in a ten uh micrometer, a core size.
cole hamel: And if uh, we're talking about the Dc. Coupled uh tile with the uh with the direct There I read out the A.
cole hamel: The H. A challenge has a two and a half to two to fifty-four by two, fifty, four uh uh sizing with it three millimeter well, roughly three point eighteen millimeter peach.
cole hamel: So it's a thirty-two by thirty, two
cole hamel: uh providing zoom
cole hamel: twenty-four uh total pixel, count
cole hamel: So And if you talk about the
cole hamel: active area at present, the active area is pretty low it's about uh sixty-nine and uh
cole hamel: sixty-nine percent.
cole hamel: And uh,
cole hamel: uh, now we're going to be talking about ways how this can be uh extended or enlarged
cole hamel: So uh everything uh i'm gonna show today is uh, you know. So sort of in it in a very preliminary stage, so it can be further modified uh later on.
cole hamel: So well
cole hamel: as you see in the present design, with a sixty-nine millimetre active area, a fraction it can be further increased
cole hamel: uh by uh, the reducing the thickness of the side wall, they and a footprint as well as
cole hamel: well
cole hamel: electrode that contacts the
cole hamel: so it could be increased easily,
cole hamel: not easily, but in principle it can be increased to about eighty percent
cole hamel: uh relative to what we uh
cole hamel: have right now. So this was achieved by um just uh reducing the overlap,
cole hamel: so as you can see here, uh
cole hamel: with, instead of one hundred millimeter
cole hamel: uh active, various side, it was extended to about one hundred and four Millimet Directive, various side, and, as I mentioned earlier, this side was also a reduced. The thickness of the side was also reduced.
cole hamel: Um!
cole hamel: So this is we stood here.
cole hamel: Uh,
cole hamel: however, there there, there. There could be some uh concerns when we realized this uh first is that if we squeeze uh the sidewal uh, and
cole hamel: the
cole hamel: spacings between the gals between this side will in the Mcps we may have, we may, we may experience some probably high voltage instabilities because of the uh reduced uh distances between the electrons.
cole hamel: All right, then, uh
cole hamel: the amount of we haven't really uh contacted the uh vendor. Yet whether this uh side will uh this
cole hamel: in our sidewal is uh easy to manufacture, but i'm pretty sure it is. So it's There's no uh major
cole hamel: a major uh uh show stoppers in here, I think,
cole hamel: and also if we reduce the uh
cole hamel: sidewal with not with, but uh uh uh thickness, then uh, the contact area between the and the for the window will be reduced. So I don't know we whether we will face any ceiling challenges,
cole hamel: and also, as we uh
cole hamel: reduce the overlap
cole hamel: between the Mcs and the contact in electrodes, you may experience some higher dark rates from the a so-called age noise.
cole hamel: If we have a if we if it's the edges more
cole hamel: so. These are the challenges we will need to face. Uh in order to realize this concept. But uh, in in any
cole hamel: keys this uh concept we will realize by achieving some compromise between higher open area, a higher open area and the
cole hamel: uh uh electrical stability and all the other uh concerns that that that that I mentioned here.
cole hamel: Uh,
cole hamel: now. Uh, this is just to show uh what the what the out the coverage would look like. So in the on the right hand side you can see the present configuration with the ten, twenty-four pixels,
cole hamel: and they are uh two and a half millimeter each. Well, two fifty, four, but it doesn't matter uh two, fifty, two and a half millimeter pad with it ten, twenty-four pixels, in order to get to a higher uh open area.
cole hamel: So there are two ways uh whether we keep the same pixel, count, but cut chop a little bit of uh of the Mcp. Sides,
cole hamel: or we just keep the same Mcp size, but we add another uh a row of pixels on on each side. You can see here uh that that total it about ten, seventy-seven uh pixels.
cole hamel: So this is also uh doable. Well, both uh keys can be can be realized.
cole hamel: Uh, However, we we, with the first case I described, which we we we need to cut down. The Mcp is a little bit uh, then uh, there is a it's a It's a big a challenge in terms of uh rem manufacturing. All the fixturing for the Mcp is utilization and all this stuff.
cole hamel: So if we keep this same pixel a same with the Mcp dimensions that we don't. We don't have to do anything so it can be realized uh
cole hamel: uh
cole hamel: sooner.
cole hamel: So Um!
cole hamel: This is
cole hamel: what's gonna happen with the
cole hamel: another thing. Uh, I wanted to. Uh, this is, by the way, this is just the end with no uh spacers inside. Well, this is how it looks like. This is a present configuration on the right hand side, and you can see uh here only two connections to
cole hamel: to the Mcp's top and bottom, because they are a stack back to back. This configuration is kind of um
cole hamel: it's possible, However, it uh the gain in this configuration is somewhat reduced as compared to the configuration with the Mcps have back, have back, have a gap in between, and can be powered independently, so in a new manner
cole hamel: that we are yet to be yet to uh design. So this is very preliminary design. The Mcp's will be powered independently. So here we have a two, a four, a high voltage contacts that are represented by these dots,
cole hamel: and also there is a
cole hamel: around this uh
cole hamel: pixel or a There is a ground in uh,
cole hamel: so called free.
cole hamel: This is to protect electronics.
cole hamel: If there is a uh
cole hamel: break down or something or
cole hamel: so, this is to protect the electronics from high voltage.
Junqi Xie: I like the other question that the Times is meditated.
cole hamel: Yeah. So I'm: i'm done so. Another question I wanted to raise is that
cole hamel: we really need two and a half millimeter pixel size. It can be extended to three millimeter pixel size
cole hamel: as a Uh. Well, since the cac a require minimal requirement is three millimeter, so this can be easily extended to three millimeter, and this would reduce the channel account to about seven hundred and seventy-two pixels, as shown here,
cole hamel: and that this is not a question for a discussion. So thank you for for listening, and this is a some conclusion we can potentially increase active in both the Leds or Hrpds,
cole hamel: and uh, in the Hrtpds we can achieve like eighty percent uh open the area. And if there is hide, if if the reason you mind can the demand, you can
cole hamel: uh go with a larger pixel size in Hrpd directly coupled. Thanks.
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): Thank you, Alex. And Uh. Sylvia, go ahead for your question. Thank you. Thank you for this preview, as I have uh not seen uh, directly, any Hr. Ppd:
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): How is the high voltage distributed there, because this is essential to understand that also the planning for increased active area that you have shown
cole hamel: how this is done presently.
cole hamel: So the is uh,
cole hamel: this is the uh top. So so each one of these uh a note pads is a is a via,
cole hamel: so the are not. The pattern on both sides is equivalent. So it's a what you see here. You can see. You see A at the bottom of the Hrpd.
cole hamel: And I have a picture here of Hrtp: So this is. This is how it looks
cole hamel: bottom. This is really Hrtp and the um
cole hamel: the voltage distributed. So each uh Mcp has a kind of a metal frame on top uh.
cole hamel: So a stack of the Mc. Is in this case, because they're stuck back to back. They They have a a metal freeing uh
cole hamel: on top of the Mcp Stack and on the bottom, and then this metal frame is connected to these uh little pads on the on the bottom,
cole hamel: and uh by uh using uh, say, a pogoing, you can apply high voltage to it.
cole hamel: So this is uh this: how it's done,
cole hamel: and the well there is there in in. If you interested how it is distributed inside,
cole hamel: Then there are little springs in there.
cole hamel: I did uh a contact
cole hamel: uh Mcp uh uh electrode and the and and and the pad on the I read out the plane.
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): Yes, because uh
cole hamel: yeah, surface is very small. It's um
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): um!
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): One would like to have a memorable connection for high voltage.
cole hamel: Mhm
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): So you you, with with different with different approach. I see this one for an experiment that has to stay on the floor ten and more years
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): you would like uh that. Things are variables, you know. Experience tells me that when an experiment is getting a little bit older after a few years on the floor.
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): The first things that fails are connected.
cole hamel: Yeah.
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): And uh, therefore uh,
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): yeah, something more of it should be.
cole hamel: Yeah, we are actually uh working with the Alexander about how to connect those uh Uh. W. W. W. Those connectors
cole hamel: uh to a high to high voltage.
cole hamel: When the there are several ideas.
cole hamel: One is already mentioned that there are some other way. We's uh with the soldier in a context to this uh,
cole hamel: to these pads,
cole hamel: because these are not uh uh manualization. It's it's A. Through A. Vs:
cole hamel: so the one can uh probably a solder that
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): it was just the general message.
Jerry Vavra: I have a question you will, of course, benefit,
Jerry Vavra: having
Jerry Vavra: from having a smaller pixel size. If you reduce button as Mcp. To an old distance.
Jerry Vavra: If you have five millimeters up,
Jerry Vavra: that charge will be distributed over many pixels. Okay, with it with the gap
cole hamel: uh right now. Uh
cole hamel: it is uh about one and a half uh millimeter. Okay, So that's good.
Jerry Vavra: Yeah. Oh, okay,
Jerry Vavra: okay, So that that that's much better. Yes, I thought. Five millimeters. No, no, no, no, it's a five millimeters. The Annot thickness is in the Mcps and the also in the in the
cole hamel: in our uh basic.
cole hamel: Oh, well, baseline design of the A. Le Pd. It's six millimeter gap, but in in this device it's a it's just one and a half a millimeter.
Jerry Vavra: Yeah, we have a low profile like Okay. So
Jerry Vavra: in other device you would use like much larger pixels, presumably
Jerry Vavra: because he would not have benefit from a smaller pixel.
Junqi Xie: All right, uh correct. Go ahead.
craig: Uh, yeah, Actually, that was uh, basically my question, too. I was trying to understand the rationale behind the the so called gapless uh Mcp configuration. Uh,
craig: because I mean, I I guess if you're looking at some charge sharing uh that you read out, you you want to spread the charge out. So yeah,
cole hamel: so uh gapless. That was just the original design of a Hrpd and uh,
cole hamel: uh, in the next iteration, which uh
cole hamel: which gonna happen sooner or later.
cole hamel: A rather sooner
cole hamel: it will have a uh
cole hamel: independent powering, as you can see here.
cole hamel: So there is. It's it's independent powering
cole hamel: for each uh,
cole hamel: and there will be a gap about the one millimetre gap in between uh the Um. Cps as well.
Jerry Vavra: If If I recall our measurements. Uh, now it's fifteen years ago. Sorry uh we. We measured for five millimeter gap between Button Mcp and Unode
Jerry Vavra: fully that maximum about six millimeters.
Jerry Vavra: So we, we, we, we, we at that time barrel. I had to one and a half million pixels, actually, and we could not benefit from it.
cole hamel: Yeah.
craig: So one is to find some optimum basically a little bit of charge and sharing helps, but too much that it's not very good. Yeah, it. It. It's clearly coupled to the design of the I mean for direct you that it's one thing. But, uh you're trying to do some sort of charge sharing it's. It's couple to the how you do that read out So
craig: so some optimization there.
cole hamel: So the thing is, the thing here is that uh, we will need to select uh, just one design which we will be proceeding,
cole hamel: because this
cole hamel: I have a long lead time,
cole hamel: and uh,
cole hamel: they are pretty expensive. Well, uh it's. It's not like. They are expensive per device, but so there is a tool in charge that that they is. Uh with every iteration. There is a tool in charge, which is pretty high, so we will go with some uh
cole hamel: uh configuration. That would be uh, that would that would be.
cole hamel: That will satisfy uh, all all the parts I mean. Uh, whether we we want, we want to go with
cole hamel: uh two, three millimeter, pixel size or two, and a half millimeter pixel size. This is yet to be decided.
M. Popecki: And then on this directly coupled model that we're looking at right now. Most of the signal is isolated to one pixel. But then you get something like ten or fifteen percent on either side, so you can still do centroid if you want.
M. Popecki: Given the gap that Alexi mentioned between the Mcp and the and that's what we see now.
craig: So is it easy to if you kept the gap between the
craig: the two Mcps, whatever you
craig: to to to vary the
craig: the gap between the West Mcp and the enter. Is that easy to change?
cole hamel: It is easy. Yeah, it is.
cole hamel: Yeah. So you could still team the zoom that is is, uh with the same. Yeah, we can tune that. Uh, we. We We will have one it to one new iteration of Vienna, but all the rest can be tuned.
Mike Foley: Okay, And and just to note um in parallel with this work with the capacitively coupled Um, Hr. Ppd: We're already in the Uh. With a new sidewal design, and putting in G them cps with that
Mike Foley: thirty or forty thousand gap in between, and we can play around with those gaps in that model. Um, you know, while this one is being redesigned, quoted, ordered, and and then we have the long lead time. So so that is, and there there are independently Uh um, run.
cole hamel: Thanks, Mike. Yeah, I just wanted to mention that we also have this uh the positively couple of the Hrpd version, in which we will be
cole hamel: kind of playing with the
cole hamel: gap, size and the side will hide and stuff, so we can uh come to a
cole hamel: and the the with the capacitively coupled, eh? Or Ppd, We can do it in house. Most of the most of the stuff can be done in house.
cole hamel: And uh, this is this is our next step to optimize the capacity with the coupled version of this Uh,
cole hamel: your voice.
Alexander Kiselev: Okay. So I think this all sounds very intelligent. So thank you, gentlemen, for the for the presentation. So several it's it's obvious that several comments on which we came up in the last months and weeks I've taken into account, and either made it uh into the pro
Alexander Kiselev: proposal, so it's called the the As well proposal is funded by, by by the way, in so I I also see several positive changes here, so certainly we don't want stack time cps, and um I would vote against the
Alexander Kiselev: thousand seventy-seven pixels, because this number just doesn't sound right to me so that would be a that would be a thousand to twenty, four minus uh change because of the contacts or whatever um. So about other designs. So I think the sequence for me would be uh we first matter and the
Alexander Kiselev: trash here we residual church here increased the tile which we got. So with the standard access and the
Alexander Kiselev: Jerry, I I think we we have almost no doubts that certain residual church sharing will be there. Uh, which would, uh provide to, I think, better special resolution might be much better. And then the size over square and twelve. So we just need to confirm this. So once we confirm this, so at that point we
Alexander Kiselev: probably would need to think about um, maybe an alternative design of this plate, because i'm sure that eventually uh people will start asking questions. So can we get this in a different pixel or whatever. And then, uh, in the long term, I think if you had, if you had two options, for example,
Alexander Kiselev: so obviously here you can implement two if you
Alexander Kiselev: and connect to groups of two by two pixels to give them so. But maybe something something in between. Maybe it would also be beneficial so like I showed, for example, for for vic configuration. So we know that for millimeter, p she is fine so then sounds like twenty-four by twenty, four might be on right
Alexander Kiselev: right option. So so one other question which I had before um, as long as we are on this slide, so remind me, please, what happens if uh electrons and between pixels.
Alexander Kiselev: So why this gap is that white
Alexander Kiselev: between the pixels?
cole hamel: I think it's the limitation of the manufacturing process.
Alexander Kiselev: Okay, So are we expecting what to like like charging up at some point? Or
Jerry Vavra: I would say yes, a little bit. The the. Of course there is a resistivity, so it will bleed away. But you know it will affect higher rate behavior at some point.
Alexander Kiselev: Um must be tested. Yeah. So should we probably also check what the manufacturing limit is.
cole hamel: All right,
Anil Mane: Alex. This is anil from Argon. Uh, that's a really good point. That gap between these two pads. Uh, So what happened is electron calling in that area? I think one of the projects that we worked in past, or scratching the charge so conducting gold pad or whatever a material they will use it,
Anil Mane: and then you can still at uh pull that charge towards next uh, away or uh towards the next pad. Basically.
cole hamel: Yeah, we we We were uh discussing it here also internally, whether we can put the say a ail decoding on top of it,
Anil Mane: and it shot those gold or pin, or whatever that gold pad of water is three by three. Deliver one or two point, five million.
Alexander Kiselev: So are we
Alexander Kiselev: talking about the internal side or external
Anil Mane: what? I
cole hamel: it's both sides. Yeah,
Alexander Kiselev: quoting.
Alexander Kiselev: Yeah, Okay,
Alexander Kiselev: Okay,
Alexander Kiselev: all right. So I didn't see more questions. So let me make another comment. So I see that there are not many people left, I think, what we should do, anyway, so we should uh start using the mailing list.
Alexander Kiselev: Um!
Alexander Kiselev: I would not have a problem to put all these thousands of thousand one hundred and twenty email addresses to subscribe to all these people, and if somebody is not happy, so they they can unsubscribe,
Alexander Kiselev: but doing it this way. Uh, so we will not miss uh uh people from time to time, as as we did in the last week. But the other thing is that uh, if you don't mind, Alexi, for example, so you can send uh suggestions like this to the main list and maybe get some prompt feedback.
Alexander Kiselev: So yeah, that will be
Alexander Kiselev: useful to Yeah, sure. So if you okay, go ahead. Sorry. Speaking of Uh: people who have been uh missed out so far. Um!
Matthew Malek: I only found out about this uh last minute, and uh, we have, as you heard from from Glasgow, and last time Edinburgh, uh a growing
Matthew Malek: community of L. A. Pp. Users in the Uk. Most of whom aren't on the list. So uh who should I get in touch with in order to get uh people added. So if you authorize me to, you know, to to to make this change and subscribe people. So I will do this, and then send email to
Alexander Kiselev: to everyone who means,
Alexander Kiselev: uh, who we know so far. And then, of course, you can point people to this mining place that will be maintained by B. Now it will be our card.
Alexander Kiselev: So if this is what we want, I will certainly do, and so then all the materials will be an open archive, so that people can go back and see what the particular threats and things like that.
Matthew Malek: That sounds good to me. Thank you very much.
Junqi Xie: Okay, Is that all we have? So
Junqi Xie: thank you. Everyone for joining the workshop. And uh, I believe another way of how this kind of works over twice seventy years. So next time we were announced earlier, so that you can uh get in touch with that,
Alexander Kiselev: Michael. You want to add something to him? Oh, just just wait, I say, saying goodbye and thanking everybody for their participation.
Alexander Kiselev: Okay, thank you. And next time we probably should if if we are really getting that late, and it's already five. I was on the half. So maybe this thought Start Point was over, tuned in the in the other direction.
cole hamel: Yeah,
cole hamel: well done, thank you. Bye, bye, bye, bye, bye,
Bernhard: bye, bye,