more exciting part of the pond
And it is actually available today. So what this is is a tendency centimeter squared.
So it also has a shutdown pair of it.
Specifically 10 micron ports. These are also available in class or ceramic bodies.
And we yeah versions study. One is a capacitive company which is identical to the that was just shown, and the other one is a direct call.
For
What you see here are, and the bottom diagram, that 1,024
Point 5 squared.
This is still a product in in development, but this is a photochat.
There queues. Then and here is a we're getting a percent 3, 65,
And as for game and dark we're see similar results to that of the
Configuration of 900, both on the across Ncp.
And 100 full set photo chat. So hi!
And again around one killer centimeter squared
The left hand side is the transit time distribution for the Hrtp.
So we going a Gaussian to the the core we're getting for a second
Perform androiding to depend. Position of the laser, hit on the Hr.
And ,
So this is the pricing model for this. it follows the trend.
Basically the more tile is the order of the the tile increases.
Please feel free to reach out to us for more detail alright So if i'm ongoing, I think he recently did some magnetic field measurements that are gone with the help June, she others, and you will be getting into
Another development that we're pursuing is thermal coefficient of this, and don't and this will.
This may be covered in a new stock later on so another interesting talk is by Call Hamil, and you'll be addressing the Ltpd. and Hr.
Ppd. and they're upcoming up in response. how our collaboration with Eic and one of the upgrades.
Well, one of the task is to extend the photochat.
The response to roughly, where our current team we've also done some time measurements
And, as mentioned, Alexey will be giving a contact on how seek to enhance the active But also yeah.
About that space for
And our collaborator at collaborator at I mean that's.
He has received a Z stock technology that has been developed to be timing layer over some interesting results.
Later as well. That will sum up my introduction. Thank you for listening, and I hope everyone has a good thank you, Sean.
Please call your questions for Sean for the end of the workshop.
So we'll move to that let's go ahead Okay, I will share my screen.
Then
Okay, Do you see my screen? yes, okay, you have Yeah, Thank you.
So hello, everyone. So we from So we just had a just being on the Lpd.
At some Ps. and we We finished it last week, and this is a joint.
This was a joint default by Anf. and Thursday, and in Genoa and Bnl.
I know our main goal was basically to measure the single photoelectron time resolution on the Lpvd.
So we have into the 3 talks, and followed by discussion.
I will mainly give you the overview of the setup, and then in the next talk, Sylvia will be some practical issues that we face during our bim test, and then the results will be presented by mikhail in
the next talk, and then we can discuss the whole everything in the next in discussion session, and then I would jump into the and this schematic Well, this is a very simple schematic to show you how we mounted the
L. Pbd. Basically, we mounted the little bit in the backward direction.
So the beam is The The redout part of the lipidity is facing the beam.
And this is the radiator. So the sharing of photons are being produced in the radiator and also on the window of the Olympic id.
Then, of course, the beam fish is the sip in which is our trigger system, and then the beam goes to the Mcp.
Pmgs. How much VPN. T.
Which we are using for timing. So in simple, this is our our main schematic.
We are using this, this being in in parasitic mode.
So we are sharing. We are the downstream of the and and sharing the beam with the D reach prototype. So if you can see my cursor, this is the duration of the headron being this is the release
prototype. And this is where we are sitting. This is, and our dark box, which contains the lipidity and and all other things.
Another picture on the right shows and the dark box here. Okay, So now, just to identify which is what, from the schematic.
So the first element here this is the Lpd. Then we have this small aspirations as the radiator.
Then we have the sipm, and then this is the Mcp.
And the beam is essentially going like, this. Okay, So at the first output, of course, we we are monitoring and the online signals, as you can see, this large purple signal is this ipm signal and then we have
the Lpvd Signal, and this is the large signal from the Mcp.
And and this is another result from the simulation nice January simulation, which shows, and this the outer ring is due to the and the chair could photon or produced at the as the radiator and this is
the due to the due to the photos produced in the laptop video.
So this is something we are we are expecting at the end.
So we started our work with Lpvd number 87.
This is a a well-known liquidity to us.
We have been using it for almost one year now, and this is at the bottom.
You can see that this is the the Redout, both of the Lppd.
It is a 8 by 8 area of but Okay, we we we face some problem at some point, and then we decided to move to another elephant from 87 We moved to 124 The details will be discussed
in the next talk. but these are the main all the the the the 2 laptops we we used in our.
You know our vim test we are using. custom made pre amplifies by Nf.
In general. This is a simple schematic, and this is one small unit.
You can see, and and the phone version comprises 8 input and output paramet.
So this is the the final version of the box that we have used.
We are reading out 32 channels, so you can see we we need 4 of such a boxes, and the boxes is outside the dark box.
Okay, and that for the age we set up. We initially started with the model kind 1417
But then we switched to this model, this desktop model 1415, and this is useful.
The one for the grounding. Second is, it has It has the provision to stack channels which make it makes it a lot easier to do supply voltages to multiple channels at the same time.
And Okay, So the first row is Well, let me start from the middle load.
The middle law is the is the in both channels. Then this is carried forward to the to the top rule, and of course the bottom row is the output channel, and if you look carefully this is just an example how we applied the
voltage, if you can still identify. This is the small schematic of the Lpd.
And this is how we have connected. And now, probably you can make sense from the number how they are added and applied.
The potential is applied here. So this is the incremental value, and these are the absolute values, and we applied to the L. A.
Ppd: This is just one example. Okay, for the electronics we are using, and the Vme.
And so the the disadvantage is V. 17 and 42, the controller is v 1718, and this digitizer board 1,742 uses.
This and Drs for Chip, so one board has in total 4 chips.
It has a 5 giga samples per second sampling rate.
So one sample would be 200. pick a second. It can take 32 channels.
It has 2 fast triggers, one global trigger, and each channel has 1,024 switch capacitor areas which we call the cells. and but sheep.
We have one, twelve-bit Adcs. So this is a the idea of the of the electronics board.
Then, for the trigger we are using Hawaii.
Cp: Sorry This: Okay, in Si Pm: And this is the model number long, with an area of simulating fibers.
So these are 10 by 10 very often by 10 each having a diameter of 500 micrometer.
They said, Pm. Active area is 6 squared.
And so this is the the basic setup which also mounts the the the radiator lens, which is very useful for the alignment.
And here you can see this Ipm on the amplifier boat.
Then for the timing we are using, How much same Vpmt.
And it has a score, was window with a diameter of 11 millimeter.
It has a broad, spectral response which which bigs at 430 nanometer.
And well, you can see this is the signal arrival time difference.
So in this in this particular study. This is taken from this reference.
They use 2 of such M. Cps. and this is the difference.
The time difference, and we can see the season, the Sigma, which is 7, because second, which, in a way, clears that this is a very suitable instrument for and this kind of measurement.
Okay, and then well, this is how We We We use our time in the in the in the vim test.
So we had a photon day of being time in the parasitic mode.
But honestly, we could not get good, being more than 50% of the time they had different Yeah.
Issues. Installation took us almost 2 days. Then the 7 days were were very intense, because we, after installing, we we started to do our basic studies, and then we found some problem with the with 87 L Ppd.
Then we had the change time to 120 phone.
Then reinstallation and conditioning of the photoc acid also took us some time, because in this case, in this 124, the photoc Catholic needed some conditioning.
Then we found another issue, which is the ground mismatch of the 124 times to the Common Board.
All this will be discussed in the next next talk. so debugging and fixing the problem to us,
Almost more than a week. Then we had other optimizations to do.
We found several of severe ringing issues across the issues, and then we decided to to block to mass, the Bimpad.
This will also be discussed in detail in the next talks.
So then, at the end we got only 36 h of good.
Beam time, which is not a lot of time. but we we We still had some some luck with, with some data.
So this is how we we had our time well that's that's more or less.
It. I had one more snide just to show you how we coupled everything with the with the with the cables.
But okay, the only let's the conclusion probably I could find here that next time we are looking for a new boat. we would probably go with the Mcx type connectors, because in a small your time is up 30 to interrupt Okay, So i'm also done So if there
is a question, and we can see them. Thank you. Thank you.
See that you are up next. Yes, thank you. So I start sharing my slide.
So And now probably going to full screen. Now, what have I done?
All right. yeah, yeah, full screen, Al. P. I.
T: Okay. So this is the continuation of what you have seen.
So far, basically, this is the second top of our tice beam.
As you heard from that, we had a number of problems but this was a good opportunity to learn.
Let's start with, I voltage. power supply this is the scheme suggested by income that with small differences is implemented by several groups of colleagues.
Yeah, you see the implementation at Bnl. This is the high voltage unit in Bolonia.
And now all these kind modules have a common feature.
The common flow to return, which means that when you are powering one of the micro turn it plates.
This is the real schematic of what you are doing, which allows for some current that flows back to the generator.
This to the power supply. This is totally a long way of
Using the power supply that can reside the one. This current occasionally is large in unpredicted. behavior the first one is that the voltage at the bottom of your micro channel plate is not the is not the
stable, and that, in fact, what happened is that we observe this electrical instability and the accident that we have, namely, for type number 87.
The short term developed on the exit microchannel plate, then be relayed to this way of powering it.
And therefore And by the way, also the currents that you need, of course, are affected by this behavior, and you have related over voltage.
Allowance, which means that you have to use something different now, something different that was identified in this unit already described by Deb.
And what is to be underline is that really you can use it as a set of batteries and build up the voltage one over the other, and scheme which is, can be electrically really clean.
This we borrowed some in a Harry.
We do not pretend that it is the only things on the work that can work in this way.
But certainly we have to look around also different producer in case to move.
For the appropriate powering of the L. A.
Ppd now a deeper an item namely, about photo capabilities.
Quality in in a hurry. after the accident of Thai 87, we received the from Income tile, 124.
The replacement. That, has a very high term I know is a mission in this protocol.
So it's not ideal it required conditioning before operation. and nevertheless we couldn't apply the optimal problem at voltage, and we also observe interplayer voltages between the protocols and the
entrance microchannel plate. of course, this was a problem hour, the goal of our time being for that of measuring the time resolution and without ideal, the voltage of the photo capital This can only be
compromised. and the This also point to the fact that we need to have information about the idea of a good to plan for the future.
Ben, we had a problems with electrical connection. the high voltage is distributed.
Using this kind of popping connectors, and they are catching on.
Very small strips as the one that you can appreciate in this picture and the any small misalignment, or any oxidation of this tree resides in losing the contract, Then this is the contract.
To provide. Hi: Baltimore. Yeah. you see how it is organized in the the tech job and part that that is no standardization.
The second tie had, in particular, the grounding contact in a different location.
Respect to the initial one, and we had an emergency to add this conductive to be able to ground it.
Of course it took 2 days to understand it. It was not correctly grounded, because there is no nice point for this.
Another problem is that of the active, short phase. I approximately what is in the inner right square is the active source phase, while what is represented by the external level square is the Arab taken by the detector in the present
configuration the green square indicates the area of the tile. And so the between this, the internal event and the green, you have the that area which is reducible, and this should be all that that area will just needed
because otherwise you lose more than 50% of your active a face in an arrangement in which you put that type of one near to the
Add, and therefore all the electrical connections should be organized in a vertical company.
In this pin corridor between in that right and green and base.
Why I came up. Okay, okay. this is my last slide, and I leave comments and questions for the end.
Thank you so much. thank you. soon. Yeah, me kind of just share your slide.
Your app next? Okay.
Luci, my slides. I do. okay so I will present first results from I'll pay it from these data that we measure that some Ps with various .
Other on beams. well meetings in the setup already described in the previous presentations.
First of all, I start with expected results because in previous tests in the lab interest.
We observe it that let's say electronics only estimated the single photon resolution.
Could reach 14 picoseconds. if signals from L.
A Ppd are amplified by a factor of 10 with a additional amplifier.
This does not include the any time transition spread. This is a only based on the signal rice time and the signal to North Asia.
So we optimized our setup at the Cern to keep all other uncertainties on timing below.
20% of this number so below, say, 9 or 10 a picosecond Now I i'm going to the results. here.
You can see overlap of a few signals from on the left of La Ppd.
Measured by this kind Drs. for digitizer, and on the right of Homomat Mcp.
Again the one described by Deb. As you can see, the rise.
Time for Lapd was found to be a 750 picoseconds, while in the same digitizer the Hamiltonian cpu touched the limit of the digitizer bandwidth
which is a half gigs only, and so corresponds to about point 45 nanoseconds, and indeed, for hammerstream, c.
We do observe the limit of the timing for for this digitizer, however, for L. A.
Ppd. we are almost a factor to hire. so it means that timing or highest time of signals is not so great.
In the same time, if you simply estimate the capacitance of a single part of one inch with a 5 of a glass
Of the window between, and they are not then and this result part with 50 on Lord, You would expect a much smaller price time the second problem, which was, let's say, one of the major issues with our in our experiment, was the
cost stalk of multiple heats inside the La Ppd, while in single heat measurements like those made with laser P.
Possibly the signals. Each individual signal is very clean, and also thermal noise.
Signals are very clean. However, when we go to multiple hits events with, let's say, very large number of paths activated by the sharing of ring and the beam spot in this case in our case of a certain testima that the
stronger cost was observed about from depending on the channel and it's proximity to the beam pipe to the beam spot and the other issues from 30 to 90% of events were affected by these cross talk between channels and you can see examples
of this cross talk in the bottom. Here you can see the Comp.
The coincidence between Mcp. in green hammocks from Cp.
In green and lapd signal you see that in this case This is a pure ami signal, and it doesn't have any peak. It's just some kind of reflection from other channels, while in on the right you
have a signal which is affected by a crossstal.
Can you see in front of the signal? you have a some deep which affects your rise.
Time, and therefore timing in the in. in affected events many channels, Typically, half of the channels are distorted by this.
By this carl stalk Now, next we calibrated the charge distributions collected charge distributions.
First we call a calibrated with the past laser in triest with all the Lapd.
And these voltages on Mcps 875. we found that there is a missing factor of 2 in the income data sheets, which account which should be count for voltage divider in the input input
connection of the digitizer, which is a match to 50 home with A, with a simply with the resistance parallel resistance, including this factor, the the the measured in triest and calculated let's
say from data sheet again agrees very well. instead, for for the other tile for the new tile, we expected one almost 1.3.
Pico coulomb per single photon, and we observe something almost a factor of 2 low, where, although the shape of the spectrum is a little bit different, and there could be see here in the at low charges there could
be some big route that reduces the they they mean value.
Now we had only 32 channels, so only one digitizer, so we could not cover entire L.
A ppd surface, so we arrange the paths around the beam spot, selected the beams, or this.
This was a d This part the D 4 was selected as a beam sport, and we arranged the active paths around in a way to cover the the sharing of ring.
Indeed, we observe, we do observe the sharing covering.
We also manage to suppress by almost a factor of attend the
The the beam spot. let's say signal which simulations predicted to be a factor of 100 larger than the the the rest of the ring and instead the now case it was less than a factor of 2 difference and now
I come to a single photoelectron timing in jant.
If we calculate simply light Only no detector, of course.
Simply the arrival of light on an lapd surface.
We could expect the signal folder of in this configuration of the order of 8 picoseconds, using a simply a signal shapes after our amplifier, which amplified the La Dpd signals
by factor of 10 we could reach simply from the electronics point of view 6 picoseconds, while Hamiltonian Cp.
Which is faster, as you have can see. you could see in the first slides it could reach even one picosecond, ideally resolution.
And the measure resolution instead, is shown here below in the plots for all heats and the for a single photoelectron heats. They are almost the same, and they all of the order of 1,900
picoseconds. This is, almost 10 times larger than this naive.
No tts estimates, so we can let's say conclude that a timing resolution of single photon is dominated by a time transit time spread, and it agrees with measurement performed by v chain so
also on this specific tile of a Ppd.
Of the order of 90 picoseconds. and this is my summary.
We measure it timing for single photo electrons, it is 10 times larger than our naive estimates without tts.
But agrees with change so estimate measurement we yet don't understand why it's so large these tts.
Because, for example, Hamilton, Cp. that we use that has tts, or less than 10 picoseconds, not 100 web observed sharing coverings, also 32 channels limited.
Our coverage beam spot was effectively suppressed. La Ppd showed the somewhat 3 times slower.
Rice. Time is respect to to some naive estimates.
Gain is busy within a factor of 2 in agreement with data sheets provided by income, and the the last but not least, the Standard Readout Board provided by income shows very large across talk issue which has to be
resolved absolutely if this device should be used in multi-heap events, measurements, Thank you, I am done.
Thank you. So we have. Then we need for a question and discussions on Dialf and the interceptor.
So if you want to comment or ask a question just to unmute and give up, you know, have to write your hand.
So please go ahead. Yeah, yes, or not adams i'm wondering.
So this was really interesting to see those results. with the amplifiers on the lip. Pd.
But i'm wondering if you had ever considered using the amplified capacity of coupled board.
So with the boards that you showed are the non amplified ones with a little transformers, I believe, I designed that one.
I also designed when I was at income a board with 64 pads for capacitive coupling that have amplifiers in each channel.
I don't know if you know of that board and maybe you could use it.
We didn't know anything about that board and we didn't have chance to use it.
Of course. Well, it it it is in some sense it is very similar to what we have done.
Yeah. But I mean that this already exists and has 64 channels.
Off again. and for the Italians I called it the Lamborghini, because it's high performance and hot.
It consumes about 50 watts for all these amplifiers.
But anyways ask your income. colleagues for the Lamborghini Board.
Okay, Thank you. Okay, but pay attention that our main problem with the redoubt board was its design and the very large cost of between tenants.
I understand. but and I mean that that to which extent the cross talk comes from the La P. B. D.
Into which extent it comes from the readout board isn't quite clear yet.
But in any case, the I mean all these words the Lamborghini, and also the passive board, do have, do make use of differential signals as much as possible to reduce the props talk
Hi! Mark Quebec years So the the rise time that you're observing this three-quarters of a nanosecond really driven by the diameter.
The micro channels, 20 microns and then it's with the 10 micron.
It's more like half a nanosecond rise time and the transit time spread.
That you're observing here is also largely driven by the photo cathode voltage ideally. you'd be able to go to a 100 volts or higher on the photo.
Cap. We have some data with larger voltage on photocattered, but unfortunately it was a taking, not in the last configuration.
So. I will try to analyze it but i'm. not sure it's reliable enough and also, if I'm accounts also for 1 24 in your manual It was a region 50 vote was the
suitable range. So anyhow, we we all were. Yeah, it was the the the, the the suggested optimal configuration. for this, for this in the dark rates. But for the timing you really need to be a 100
volts or higher. But if you look on the plot that we change, so measure it for this specific tile, it actually already constant.
At 50 volts. It is not going down the zoom. Tts: there is.
There is such plot in in in the in data sheet.
You. you provided the data sheet. sorry I I this is me chance. I don't know if this is the same thing chance, but I mean, as far as I remember.
I mean the So the the the Tts. when well below 90 people seconds Apollo.
50 volts. and there was a webinar. The question that there was a
A longer tale of of out of time events let's see, say non non-picked events with with the higher voltage of the of the protocol.
But the core resolution of the of the that's improved quite a lot.
Yes, but I I I have a plot in figure. 10 of these.
Lapd, 124, which shows that it actually flattened up the the the distribution that almost 90 ecosystems for this specific board.
I guess, which is been your 10 you mean sorry figure standing inside.
That is Unfortunately, I don't have it on this computer I cannot show it.
But I can send you I can send you this document.
This is data sheet from income. okay. So that that is not measured by me.
By the way, it's it is written it is written something that's measured by sender, and we don't in that measure, and we're not taking out any electronics uncertainty, and maybe not even the
laser uncertainty either. Okay, yeah, this is Alexi here from income.
I I Wanna comment on the difference between time Francis.
Times spread between Kamamatzu and the Mc. Pmt.
And the income. So the the the the main difference comes from the poor size.
Kamamatu Mcc pmt has so i'll know which 6 micro pores and income has 20 micron force, and that's the that's where the timing difference come from
so we can. We do also 10 micro employees with a with a better timing.
Well approximately like £30 or so this is Andrew.
I don't know of any i'm not to pmt the single photoelectron transit time resolution at 1050 s.
Let's see extremely really sounds like a multiple this number is taking from from the data sheet.
It's not but for a single photo electron 10 picoseconds is is
30 i'm i'm not sure it is for single for the electron.
But it, it is a number from data sheet yeah Well, I mean we we didn't infinite number of what electrons I mean.
We we know we can reach the Pico Second Level, you know.
This is for single for electrons, never the of a device that could be some
No, but the data published from a map. So that is with ionizing particles.
Yeah, Yeah, no, my I i'm not referring to that data.
I referring to a data sheet of check it again, because that's not right.
First thing transit time spread
Okay, this is Jenny, but it's probably not far away, some of here actually, and measuring the the same ones that are using top.
What we got, including the electronics and Laser was 25 people.
Second Sigma, and in that sheet in the measurements of Harmon. So actually it was. We did have maximum of about 30 to 25, because I so So it's for these and this was for this large one inch
devices. This smaller one likely has a solution better than 20 picoseconds.
Yeah, that that is, that is, in order to remind you that they could respect so a little bit better than 20 people seconds is okay.
Then below 10 people second start to be a little bit yeah But I I i'm speaking about sigma here because everybody provided the data in the term of sig bond in not in the full no no I I
don't have to see them as well jerry was trying to contribute. Yeah, I would like to make one comment had in my hands about 15 planner con from Barrel, and so I have it's not based
on experience of one chew, but many. and this I started also with again of amplifier gain of 10, and at the end to develop F.
Dirk in the that's been we graduated to a gain of 140 to keep the gain on the tube below, 10 to the 6 in plug.
We were running about 5 times 10 to the 5, and the reason was that when you push the gain well,
No me now. you might think that noise is under control, but the M. Cp.
Can go into sudden instabilities from various reasons and it it's kind of dangerous to to to plan on high gain with these devices.
That's my experience as far as on the bench transit Time spread. the best one.
I had was about 30 picoseconds with parallel. Mcp.
How it didn't almost matter whether it's 10 micron or 2025 micron a whole third comment.
Yes, if you In fact, I was the first one to see that if you hit the Mcp.
With. then or more single photo electrons. spread it all over.
You get coherent resonances, and this has never been solved by borough.
In fact, in the plan account it existed all along.
It has something to do with the distribution of the back plane and high voltage.
Treat the ground return. and so this has to be really solved on the on the very detailed level in.
If you want to eliminate it. Okay, that's my comment, Actually, we have to wrap up. study we had over a minute.
So please continue offline. Sam, please share your site.
I just have a really important comment on
Go ahead And a new back end electronics was developed to reduce this cross stop which dominantly comes from the ground plane fluctuation.
That's why you have that big negative going hard of your post it's the whole ground oscillate.
So yeah, top 2, Michael. reason back to that. Thank you, Samo.
Please go ahead. Okay, Thank you. So let me show some update on the measurements that the
Ella about the Lpd. We actually had it until the beginning of May.
So we are still analyzing. So what we need to it, we were interesting, basically, mostly in charge, sharing to see what size of pets we can use with this capacitive coupling timing.
And also we test it to electronic system, space and fossil on this device.
So we have a 109 sample, and it has a you know the parameters will.
Basically, the back plane is 5 thick glass, which is, defines the capacity coupled sharing.
We use the alpha last alpha last speaker, laser with 20 peak, a second full bit of mocks then blue call, or basically and about 100 micrometers port.
And the results are still preliminary. So this is a classical setup that we use.
We also use this use this cascading actually, floating power supply. one thing to mention is that actually for M.
Cp. 2. The power that we needed was more than 26.
What which is the limit. And so we used to channel cascaded, and in this case, actually, after 7 h, so sometimes few days, they, these 2 channels developed on their work.
If you reach within, understand, basically. So maybe this is something to be solved.
Okay, So we, the L. A. Ppd. came with the standard backplane from income, and with this 8 by 8 one inch pets one, and we also made the 10 back plane.
So this one has this coupling with transformers that actually also.
And what is the signal? And what we made was directly coupled back plane with the different patterns from one inch to 3 strips.
And for 2 different electronics, 3 basically modulus. with this coaxial connectors.
And then pages, connectors and the for phone connectors here.
So we used all of those for the tests. No, this is the oscilloscope, a picture of the signal that comes directly out when we use the Income Board, and this is the signal that comes out from one inch pet when we
use our board to that is copper directly. So without inviting polarity.
Okay, this is just the explanation of the model of electronics.
I will not go through. just for the completeness.
What we usually do basically in this smaller test is to measure agency and and Tdc.
And this is the example of Tdc. accumulated in one channel.
This is Agc, and then correlation and connection function, and then connected.
Tdc spectrum, which this is in linear scale.
So you can see this pronounced main peak, and then the back scattering that goes in this case up to 2 nanoseconds.
Basically. So the Sigma at 150 volts.
Oh, photocatos to main Cp: One voltage.
We reached about 40 picoseconds. Basically, this is for the main peak.
Of course the full distribution is this, and this full distribution is expected.
Has the different contributions from the back scattering, and this limits the this is the laxically back scattered photo from limit.
And there is some probably optical reflection outside which is not correlated with timecp.
But we didn't study in detail This it's a very small contribution from our setup.
I guess so, to confirm that behavior, or with different Pc.
Photo cats to Mcp. One voltage is we measured that different tuna from 150 volts, which gives, of course, the best timing down to 30 volts.
And you can see that the timing becomes worse.
Also for this reflective peak. But the position of this peak remains the same while everything has stretches.
So basically That's why? we believe this is an external contribution which doesn't matter So the if we plot.
Now, the Sigma is the function of the voltage.
Basically we come from about 75 to down to 40 and that's still seems to be a room for improvement.
If we could go. All these values also included that this contribution from laser and electronics, which is roughly at the same level as the laser contribution.
20 picoseconds will be top box. So and these are the segments.
Yeah, So this is the timing part. Then, as I said, we were Internet in the charged reduced charge spread on the back plane.
And the what is the main contribution? we expect? It is due to the capacitive coupling.
So similarly in multivar chambers. just to be sure, we also measure the 2 different voltages between Mcp.
2, and and not one would expect that if this is contribution from the electrons spreading in this space, that this was to be reduced by about square root of the voltage applied, and what you see is basically what we
usually plot is the charge measured at the pad divided by the chart.
The charge measured on all pets. This is well defined, and does not depend on the variation of gain.
We inside the device, so you can see that it follows nicely some curve, which is, can be rather easily to the 0 application explained by the induced charge on the infinite street.
So this is just the function that is plotted and it's the same, and up and down, and you can see that the it feeds both the same way.
So that is basically no considerable contribution from the electron spread, but just from the induced charge spread from the resistive announce to the capacity coupled pass which are 5 away behind the glass window the
right clothes, and just the logarithmic scale, where you can see some other features like back scattering range of the electrons.
This green belt around the main bed, which is the direct hits.
No, just a blow up of these. we chose how to talk.
Shared. One can use in principle this to better position. calculate better position of the initial charge that hits the end.
And it also shows basically, what is the spread to photo electrons.
If you just put these slice at 50%, you can see that the signal is
The the solution is very well defined. about the range of bags.
Gathering photo electrons is also as expected around 6
So, comparing this capacitive to the device with boral direct announce this visualized time.
So here the contribution is from the electron spread between Ncp.
2 and the and out. And here, basically it's the positive copying. So you can see that in this configuration basically the capacitive coupling contributes much more.
No, we also measured, prepared, basically the different pattern.
This is the 5 states but it's not it's, actually one inch divided by 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 pets.
So it's roughly 5 and we also measured how the signal actually is induced in this narrow but smaller pets.
You can see that one can measure roughly 40% of the signal in such a 5 pet compared to the total signal that is induced on the back on the Alex throat it is okay, And the
timing, basically on this strip is still roughly around 40 picoseconds.
So the timing still remains roughly the same as it's on one inch bed. Now we made some estimates similar in a similar way, as it's done for multivar chambers basically for induced
charge. We calculated the waiting field, and try to estimate the amount of charge that is measured.
This waiting field. In on the left we used actually a lot of simple calculation where we neglected the the the electric constant of the glass, which overall actually reduces the amount of induced charge in the calculation but
the distribution is roughly the same as if you calculate properly.
Wait to the proper, the electric constant of the glass. So the distribution is, You can see the comparison here.
There are 2 curves, basically one distribution using the simple method and the other one.
The proper calculation using the the the electric constant.
So to, but the left one is faster, so we use the left one to estimate what one can expect in the different size of pets.
And this is basically, these are different 4 different configuration.
The left number is the distance between the Mcp. out and the amate, and the right one is annoyed to a capacitive coupling readout, and we have this 6 to 5, and if you use the ceramic back then.
which is 2 and you can increase if you're going to use the M Cp.
Out to end up. then you would end up with this lower 1, 2 to 2.
This is dizzy clothes. I will just go to this lower one.
Basically here everything is normalized to what you what you can measure with the one inch pet in defense configurations.
And if you have the configuration that we have if you go down to 5 pet, you only measured about 20% of the signal on one path compared to the one inch pad, So it's.
Hard to make a smaller pets, maybe half an inch.
It would be okay, but smaller pets would be hard.
And if you have these 2 to 2 good configuration, basically ceramic backplane, then one could expect about 70 to 80% on 5 pets, which is probably something similar to see zoom hard right?
Chambers that are used for rigid detectors.
So this could be for this size of pet. This could be okay, but for smaller pets on the other of 3 or less, actually, a more direct coupling would probably be needed.
So for at the end let me show few slides about the 2 different.
The electronics. L. A. Ppd. with petsis.
This is commercial. one day it's. made for paid for larger signals, but we, anyway attach it to see what we can get, and these are just some data that you can check.
So we had 128, 5 basically 6 pets 4 by 4 in one inch.
And you can see that the signal spreads actually around. This is in the retreating scale on the order of 9 pence. And if you calculate the center of gravity, basically you can get this is in pets the scale is in pet So you
can get on the order of one tenth of the tenth let's say, size, half a millimeter, or better a solution.
Probably this we still need to analyze better. And for the timing these electronics also provides time over threshold.
So you can try to correct this. information for timing.
And this is the correlation. And when you correct the Tv information, we ended up with roughly, 80 picoseconds with this electronic, which is also reasonably good.
So this is one electronics that we tried on the Lapd.
The other one is a 6. We made the pro to board, which is attached here, of which can provide 8 channels with single ended configuration.
You can see the digital output here and the analog from the nearby modular electronics pet which we can in principle use to correct.
But we didn't have time to do yet. so this is the electronics that we attached and on the final slide.
Basically, the signals are too short they're too short to get a reasonable time over threshold.
We were not able to get a reasonable time over threshold information, so we could measure directly with electronics.
But just the timing, and in the best way. We got about 115 picoseconds.
But this is unconscious for the time work, basically. So as we measured also nearby seeing signal on the nearby pet induced pets with model or electronics, we are working now on the just to see how much we can correct
this timing, if we have also additional pull site information, and this we are still working on.
So yeah, that's all basically I didn't put any somebody slides.
So these are the God. This is the current state of the Ml is this: We don't have the device of the measurements team Sometime ago.
Thank you. thank you. We have 5 min for questions and discussion.
Please go ahead.
At what game did you operate this device we didn't really measure the game?
But we measured that what was quoted as optimal operation voltages.
So I mean not really the highest possible, but close to that.
So. but we didn't estimate really what was the game yeah
Yes, you want to add something to the previous question.
No, my my question is, all your exercise are done illuminating one single that we get.
No, Basically, all is done with a spot like illumination at different positions.
Here. Okay, because that seems to be the multiple in illumination seems to be another from Ti.
Yes, as it looks like that. Yeah, Thank you.
Okay, any more questions that comment
Great. If you think of anything, you can put it in the chat.
We can move on to our intended
Can you please stop sharing? I should do that. Okay, let me see No.
How do I actually i'll stop sharing okay sorry okay
So I want to carry my slides. Oh, okay, would they everybody. and so i'm going to report on the R.
And D. i'm writing here at brooklyn like so.
In fact, it is typically a collaborative effort without institutions, and I will indicate the collaborating parties.
We're appropriate. so there are 4 topics No. So one is June, the twentieth 22 d test that formula.
So the other one is work on Dc. coupled Hrtpd Interface, which we started recently.
Third one is and just a single slide about Hr.
Ppd application in a top positive one mission demography step up and then a couple of slides about the practical proposal of implementing the proximity focusing which was this type of auto sensors for the
Usc. everything. but you will see the folk is mostly funded by Eic R.
And D Detector on the program, and in particular with this it is erd 110 consortium for the sensors 4 years.
So let me start with the beam test in June.
So it is Brookhave and Income, Argon, Mississippi State, and an Infantry, Sd: So the setup, which we used was pretty much the same as in 2,021, where the focus was on demonstrating
special resolution of the ledd's and so this data was reported half a year ago.
So i'm repeating this, so we achieved something like 600 microns.
So single photon resolution with form a limited path.
So this year we added, as a reference. so for gem stations, and we also considered aiding timing ellipse plan economy, Ppm: Ts. Unfortunately, this was not a success, story, so we did not get reliable
as the timing estimate from those bonds, so certainly not on the level which we were hoping to get
So this was one of the issues so then what i'm listing.
Here is characteristic of gentle lic tile, 136, which is modern one.
We still micron for mcps? So it was still not full ceramic, which implies that there is a 5 thick and not base plate.
But it would mostly affect the special resolution, I think the timing one.
So the the focus of this particular game test was timing so the same as in the zombie which
So we built a you readout board pixelated, without board, without boards.
I should also mention that of course, we are interested in timing performance.
In a final case related to configuration. So this particular board as you can see.
So this would be 20 by 20 the Ldpd clip area.
So a single quadrant is basically designed in such a way that to optimize detection efficiency for a particular joint of ring configuration.
We were using the same webinar. There was an issue with with the board design, and must admit
So we were hoping to get simultaneously ring imaging and time of flight performance by shooting beam of the center of this pattern.
And obtaining tiny preference for multiple proteins produced in the quartz window, and at the same time detecting single triangle protons on this conference of the ring.
So this part did not work. So what we did not realize was that even that these boards are pretty much optimized, for the cross talk so was reported last time at cross stock level is a few percent.
But the trouble is that there are 100 photons roughly in this spot, and 3% times found. it is substantial.
So you can see that, for example, routing in one of the directions from from this board to the connectors was done vertically, and we can clearly see that in the same way, or where traces from the sample pixels were
routed completely, they complete to dominate over a single photon response.
So at the end we have to ground actually all these paths.
On the next picture you can see a mark sitting in the experimental area, and it's actually grounding these paths.
And after this we could see clear single photons. So one picture is here.
So you can clearly see simple bottom clusters. So the idea of the analysis here, which is not finished yet is that one can use with the lack of single high people, high resolution, time of reference.
So one can use relative time in between these clusters to actually extract warm water.
You can see experimental setup here so it's pretty much the same as last time ltpd in the year.
This is the encoder, this cover open translation stages, and this is the aspirations we're doing.
This is the tile and the other class of events. Again, with the absence of reliable timing.
Reference in order to evaluate time of light like performance, so one can use.
We all events, where, in addition to to the primary problem, cluster like you see here on the pop.
So there was a second cluster produced in the upstream target.
It can be by in the Japanese and relative timing between these 2 clusters in principle, provide time of flight to planning performance.
You know just the estimate. Oh, we are hopeful, earn!
We eventually get the results of the present. This is, you can see in red.
So the Dr. s 4, and place delay equalization. so.
But certain estimates one can make using a feature of there is 4 cheap.
So in principle, if you were firm, creatively select a pair of pixels from the demon shooting in this area.
So you create a pair of pixels neighboring pixels, and then select with a tracker events which hit area in between this pixels and
In this case, since this is the same verse, 4 G collaborations basically cancel out.
So you can clearly see that for this bear which accumulates at most half of the overall signal strengths.
So the relative difference is 20. pick a second, which means that half sound would be like them.
So this means that instrumental capability is certainly there.
So, of course, the signals are highly correlated, because their photons will be essentially the same.
Photons put electrons producing signal in these 2 pixels, so the other extreme would be if one chooses.
Events where the pixels from the same cheap are sitting far away from each other.
So in the reverse lens configuration. There is an exclusion area in December because of the total internal reflection on the Ltpd window backwards, and in principle.
One can think that in this case, so these 2 pixels again it's the same Jonas for you.
So they see signal induced by different groups of products. Well, these signals are small, so it's overall less than 10%. and what comes out is the difference of 50 picoseconds, which means that some of these 2 probably
give you 25 There's. nothing. surprising here so the blob, as I said, is funded backgrounds will be more so. a single photon Ttss is 50.
So eventually a profound gets down to 20, maybe 10, so there would be nothing really.
Surprisingly if you think of them. So this is where we are within the next.
So now in July we started working on Dc. coupled the interface.
So these devices exist. So what you can see here. is a picture of one of them which was delivered to Dna at the beginning of October, as was shown already, so it's one by 12 cm device is
under the front detective area. So we want to limit a pitch.
And what you do have optimized, in short, stack. so
There are, of course, different options one can consider to commit this device.
So what you get is just the bear tile, and you have to connect at least substantial fraction of this pixels.
Some week, assume that you are not allowed to solder and wars directly to these paths, so there should be some other way.
So what we considered as a quick hack, so to speak, for quick solution is to use the low force propagating this particular, the really of our alloy and springs.
So one can hope that works tuning the enclosure of this piece, which is, hold it the record of the dialogue.
So one thing called between the force to be below 50 grams per thing, which is times 1,000 foot is still substantial.
We don't have that many electronics channels anyway, so we are creeping at this moment on 256 let's in the center.
So the board I mean the 3 printed parts and the readout boards, they being a guilt now in the works on their way to Book Haven.
Already. So what you can see here, and if there are questions we can return back to this. it's not to this picture. So what you can see here is the pile which is basically consulted between the p delving plates with our
board is in between, with the poker pins on one side and connectors on the other side, and don't do this. There's some other news to probably ground and concern and This is the interface to 56 channels.
Of the Rs form. So the final integration is an interesting question.
So in principle, one can use either Lgs or whatever insertion, force sockets, or maybe so, the most promising option is to use vgas and the custom.
Pcb. in which case the Pcb. will be as a as a solic piece, together with a tile.
This will require more work, but so we will see which option is the best.
But the hope is that this simple setup would be sufficient to quantify the performance of the devices, so it will probably not stop for long on the retail port.
And so, by the way, we ordered enough of them so they can be shared.
Groups in the recent, so you can see that there is a 16 by 16 pad selected the area in the middle, and there are several other home group.
But this is a focus on for the function demography application, but they can also be used for quantifying the performance of even capacity.
It is, if one doesn't use public things well this is where we are with this exercise.
So hopefully, this setup will be on the bench on the current scale of a few weeks.
Now, 2 slides on time of life posit on a Mission democracy around project, which is the project to get with the Stonebook University.
Of course we are not the first ones. By far we realize that requirements, biology, physics, nuclear physics, and tough path in terms of simultaneous.
I. performance, high resolution, special special reservation of high resolution planning, pretty much similar.
So in these 2 areas, and one can compare the numbers for particular detectors. You know the requirements.
So if one can see this time of light applications. so then signature to the 20 pico seconds.
So there is a little bit of mismatch between foe medical scientists, defined Ctr.
And how we do with the sigmas. but the ready is the same.
So to get reasonable special resolution at the same time.
Ultimately, and of course, one of the ideas which is very straightforward is to use this mainly available high performance term icon for and then sending it to units as photos answers.
So we submitted the proposal with a python list from here.
So this proposal was approved and started in July.
So what you see here was basically put together between Jov.
Now. and what we want to do is we want to combine the existing textures and equipment which we gained.
Use is with the other ongoing project and the expected high performance of for using sensors.
So what we're going to put together that woman turned up was set up like this, where we have 2 hr Pd. assemblies.
The applied right to the right top corner. So, thanks of crystals and use radioactive source to mimic and the top it up, and we have enough channels to quit the 2 addresses, and like this in addition to that the
hope is that we can use isn't that concept please the other end of the crystals for the ui compensation.
So my last group of slides is the proposal to to off a detector or submit a population reach for for Usc.
In the elephant or in Canca so there's be no duke in the family Yesterday Mississippi state and Story book.
So the idea is to recycle, or if which simulation materials which which which went into that thin airc proposal.
So basically we are going to propose to the select ongoing character of the epic detector.
Put a box like this lines of 55 cm, which would allow us to use activity.
Gap of 40 cm replace silicon pm.
Array with the Lpds. Would you draw it here?
And at the same time, since all these particles will be crossing the sensor plane, are we?
We are, we hope to provide any preference for time of like?
Did sensor plan, signation And so this is being played out as we speak. so we think that if it can be made flat, this minimal amount of glips between the sensors, so either just instant centimeter and small hr
pds, or mix of 10 and 20 cm.
You can see them embedded in range andatic boundary conditions.
So this is yet to be decided with the engineers. But it is.
This is the idea. So then, if one can pile this sense of surface without gaps, so it's easy to understand that even that, you know charged particles will be crossing in active area outside of the autopilot and density
covered because the rank of the light cone is so here it is to scale.
So basically for 5 min as a window. so the radius of this spot will be 5.5
And since, if you can see my concern since this area at the bottom of the window is metalized, so one camera hope to get more 's like, directed back, this was the great performance, but the hope is that this setup.
We can probably provide almost 100% coverage for downloaded purposes.
So we see it needs to be a model, of course. So my last slide is ideas about integration for this device, and, in fact, for any other Httpd.
So this is the dial, which is one all the way for
So based on the studies we made in the lab and in the beam on plus here.
So we know that formula, metadata paths, which would be 24 by 24.
Acceleration would be sufficient to get special resolution on the order of oh, 600 microns, even without grammarification.
So with them. it seems that if i'm uses existing not scientific chips.
One can think of a configuration or this 16 on might be 32 channel as aing digitizer.
It's a decent performance, so point in the sample per second, gigahertz and all bandits.
So one needs to complement this climes, and we discussed this with the project.
So the overall system loaded call the up to which is the current thinking, I stop here.
Thank you. Thank you. You are all about 3 min, so we have the 4 min for questions and comments.
Go ahead. Have you considered, time over treasured diamond instead of digitizer?
So we we did not. So we can do this, especially if it turns out that that such digitizers are not available by the company, by by novel. But there will be presentation that the answer where we hope for here and something
different. i'm not sure that we are getting with the existing systems down to 10 picasso concerning the position.
So I may be wrong. But I would say that as long as the power budget is tolerable overall, because, of course, these digitizers will be more power hungry.
So. because the power of that is is tolerable.
And and you can afford them in dollars per demo would probably be the little best solution.
But any advice with respect to particular system and the remaining i'll send you some mail
So I should also mention, if there are no questions so that of course. So once we have designs of this mechanics like Pcb. layouts, and such they can be shared with interested parties.
It's not an environment on the designer
Alexander Mark Qupecky here. I I did not notice, or I don't recall when we were at Fermi lab that you had me cool Trinkov rings.
You know, multi photon detection of trancover ring? Yeah, that's good. I have a document.
So that's exactly that's exactly what you were doing so you were remembering this area.
Yeah, this discuss talk between the shrink of light from the beam going through the window.
But i'm just thinking about the the other pixels.
You just consider the trink of photons I don't remember anything like that.
Whatsoever So But again, so these boards are not that trivial. So actually they are together with the adapters.
So which you can see here. So they were built according to what Bernard suggested, as once, so they are completely shielded traces inside of the stack, so one can expect that the level of Cross stock is See?
Minimum for same amplitude, too much
One way to arrange a a test like that is to be.
Observing, ring and run in parallel random laser noise, you know, with some sort of the diffuser.
So you can populate these random photons over the whole area, and then you can nicely observe quality of the chain covering as a function of that right?
Yes, I agree. So we did not have, even if we wanted to do this.
So we did not have the capability to to insert laser city, or or even I mean it doesn't have to be actualized.
In other words, something in some light league we'll do it actually also control lightly like like we did have one uncomfortable. But something in future has this that would be useful.
To Yeah. I I agree. Yes, I agree. But the the hope still was, and mistake which I introduced in the design.
So originally these 16 paths on the sample, so they were supposed to be connected by Mtx in a directory on the on the real side of the board, and I made last minute to change to the board and to make the from
routing through the same like players. And then this basically yeah, yes.
But Alexander and Maria live. You have to have all the the same way. The answer is not so in the real life.
You will not have so like you see here. And so this is your python, and these are your connectors. right?
So you have to make traces between the 2 areas. So in real life, you will be in situations You will be in a situation like here.
So we are basically the Ac. connectors would be sitting in the same footprint where the pixels are.
So there there will be very minimal amount of cross talk introduced by the stack itself.
I think, Okay, we have some move on. Thank you.
See my screen with me. the screen. Okay, i'm going to present summer results with the on the magnetic field testing of the Iotvd adds: So here are basically a figure showing that So the Ltvd: was A
helpful to add to the Argon T, minus 2 stolenoid.
The magnet. So we receive the 3 Ltvds and 2.
We get data for the script line ones which you, the tanky Michael and the 10 micro one that. and we get a capacitor couple that pvd part of the because the redoubt electronics have some issues So we
basically even get a data. And you know, manager failure.
The manufacturing strains. For this the magnets is a point to their 2 test. out to 1 point, 4 tests.
The magnet is sitting at 1.4 5 tesla as as a t minus 2 calibration factors.
So we didn't change the magnets we didn't change the the the the magnets field that strength and the the way we change the field on the ltpd is a pushing in and out of the
magnet to get a different strength, and we use the that box made by aluminum to cover the Ltvd.
And the it laser is fixed onto the top of the under the top of the cover.
But in the Tower, so that's the position is fixed at 1.3.
So we have also have a rotation Mac mechanism at the right side, as you can see.
So the Ltp. will be rotated along this online so that you can get some kind of angle dependence measurements.
So I for the orientation of the magnet. So we use a small method to test that is, direction.
So at Argon the N. direction is actually into the maintenance.
So that's basically small information here. is showing the high voltage of the high water connection of the ltpd as a recommended by income, and we use the small box to to make sure that's the the
current can be can be loaded zoom to ensure.
A stable operation over the Ltvd.
With high voltages, so we use the 5 high voltage of connections.
And and and going inside over 2 separate Mtv kind of circuits.
And here, basically showing the signal that we get from from the script line Ltvd and
The signal from the We, the signal from the oscilloscope will show that the will phone pass is pretty pretty good.
And this is kind of a three-fly Ltv.
But the base Max. comments that's actually the real form is better even magnets compared to what we we get to? answer the what do we get the way There's no magnets present and the
the lower figure, basically showing the rotation angle that's the we can rotate as at a smaller angle, and when it's when the angle is around around the P the normal angle and the getting bigger and bigger
for the we're getting bigger bigger steps the way it's getting to be a larger to be the larger angle
And here we see the main reason out. so that's we get from this to the moment Saw the game.
So that was the Abb actually showing the actually shows the similar behavior trends as the Rd.
M Cpm. T. which we previously be, though with the outcome 6 that meet for once.
So the game here shows that it's started decrease as we increase the magnetic field, so you can see the game is around the 2 times 10 to the seventh.
At 0 magnet and the decrease to around the 7 times 10 to the fifth around the point Point 9 or around the one Tesla.
There are points. 7 Tesla is around the 1 one time since the sixth for the for the game, and
When the game is a decrease that we we can actually recover the game.
As so the higher magnets, by increasing the Mcp.
Voltages here, basically showing when when is the plan that around the 1 point, 6
But and and here there are several moments around the 102 Tesla and the rampant of 4 Tesla.
So basically we increase the high voltage. the 2 around the increase, the high, the Mcp.
Virus voltage from around 875 volts, which is a normal operation to around one.
Last 1,075, and the 1,100. so in that case we are able to operate, the Ltvd.
Ingla being on magnets around the 1 point.
We're on 1.2 to one for the 4 tesla, the ripe figure basically showing that we set that the ltv at 1.4 tesla magnets and start to to increase the the
Mtv. by the voltage gradually.
So at 1,000 the volts. So we basically single game around the one time since the sixth and start to increase the game, start to increase as we start to increase the biased voltage around the 1,100 30 high
voltage, we were able to recover the game around the 1, 2, 3, 4,006 times 10 to the 6.
So so basically it says that as the manager fit as a harmon in the field, we were able to recover the gain to
10 to the sixth by significantly increase the M Cp.
Voltages, so we are not sure if this operation is good for the Cid application as a Jerry, always a common to that, so the Mt.
Should be operated to the as a lower at a lower voltage, at a lower gain to reduce the back comes, and also some other issues with with the M Cpm.
Teams, and if we for the gain versus the rotation angle, so we were able to rotate the Ltvd around the around the normal direction.
And here, basically showing that some the king was a about we were able to see that the being actually decreased as the as the ltv is rotated around the normal direction.
That's the we have seen that's a a lot of times due to the affection of the amplification inside of the magnets, so that so they in this moment, if we the left the figure shows that the is the
middle script only. But if you actually combine all 3 steps which is next to each other, we were able to get the rights figure.
So the right figure basically showed that the the that the final amplified. the electrons was moving around the the around the the at the gates in the scripts.
So if it's a way that's the normal position we've been missed.
The that's the last done the signal to be also selected by the central center script, and as the as the angle moving from left to the right, so we were able to see that the the no that
the final The final amplify. The electron class was moving between 2 scripts, and here is a a more detailed description of the hold on
All the electrons, the moving between the scripts.
So so on the right, the top top right, the figure.
You can see that's this I clearly see that the a total target was the being shifted from one strip to another, and the and the and this is a little bit different from what we expect that. because we expect that's
the map, the the the electrons, the final electron signals the move along the strips, or actually it's a most appendicular to the scripts to the 3.
So that's a little bit of harder for us our career is here.
We show that the the the final electron is moving around around the the scripts that maybe I further, maybe the further look at a further understanding of this behavior needed to be.
And i'll add this the the about you the about to slide it just showing the moving movements of the signal at a small angle at a small angle at a small from the very 2 Tesla and there are other one Tesla we also see the similar
behavior. and then the signal is moving around of where i'm one signal from one strip to another.
Canada, and also for the for the larger magnetic field.
The angle dependence. Affection is much stronger as you can see around the 30 degree.
It's already. stuff is Job and they're smaller and go if they're under 60 degrees.
So that's basically the summary So we tested the tool script line.
Ltvd is Add some i've done 2 minus 2 min of fertility, and this server as the baseline performance of of the Ltpd in Manager Field.
That. Oh, the Ipvd basically showing the very similar behavior trends at the previous Rd.
M Ctt. and The Ivbd being decreased as a magnificent increase, and the Dean can be recovered by increasing the Mct.
Highest voltage significantly. So the final cluster actually yeah, The Ltv strip line and the bfield directly changes in the future.
We will a fuller test. someone with more advanced the Lfpb. or S.
Hrtv. in the early 2023 so that's all I have thank you for youritation
Thank you. We have 5 min for questions and comment.
Tomorrow we are raising pants. We are raising hands.
So will you call the same procedure like before?
Just go ahead jump on it Okay, so So you're in March you are going to verify that the same compensation.
3 will work at the substantial angles like 1020, 30 degrees, so it will be a similar angle.
I got some here. So basically you have a 0 degree, 2 point, 5 degree, 5 degree, and the 7.5 and 10, and then go to 1,520.
25 was 30 and 45 45 60 and 90.
That's basically the stuff we have so So other plans to verify that this type of compensation recovers the timing of the timing resolution performance as well.
So this is, we should have the timing information here actually in this measurement already. but we don't have a time to marry to truly look at a data yet.
So good the even the the data was taken. but to the data, with another analysis for the timing resolution here.
So the data was taken with, with a timing reference, so to speak, which I presume will take from the laser, Okay, good.
Thank you. These These Measurements are all done in the script line.
Iotvd is. I think the httpd should be more interested for us to do the shooting measurements.
Yeah, may ask you. I see you use the income redo board.
Is that the board with transformers? Do they saturate or no in magnetic field?
This is a strip line. this is a skip line read out the border, so there's no capacity couple at all, and the one we get one capacity couple of the Ltb mar to 126 by the way We
bring the Lvd. into the magnets the there's some issue with the Board, and we didn't get anything to know.
Thank you. So this is, if I may ask a question.
This is a very nice study, and in fact. the question. of how the tiles perform in a magnetic field is something I've been wondering about for quite a long time several years.
So it's nice to see an answer but what i'm curious about is I quite like your plot.
I forget the number, showing that the the raised voltage will compensate for even up to 2 Tesla. There we go.
Yes, slide 6. My question is really if you were going to run for an extended period of time.
What's the what's the cost to wear and tear on the tile for running at the enhanced voltage for extended periods?
If you that that's the question I always kind of as well. So should we really, apply the have very high voltage to this to such high to compensate for the team, laws? because basically it's a trend that if you
increase the high voltage of the Ncp. as high, and then the the Lpv Shouldn't. so that all the M Cpm.
Ts should be able to operate in much higher magnetic field.
The the issue will be with this kind of operation that increase the high voltage affect the the the, the lifetime of a and also the accounts of this as well.
This we we were never married actually that's that's another good point that I wasn't thinking about.
Yes, that's true the dark rate as well you can have a noise and stuff with this at some point which you don't necessarily that determine based on one single test, you have to run through many tubes to get a feel for
this, whether you you are really able to run at this elevated voltages.
And, as I said, my experience is that the there is no plan plan plan on tubes.
Oh, Jerry, what is exactly the mechanism, or why this can fail.
So if you only change the Ev on the Mcps.
Nothing else. So if you keep the tc voltage and all the other 2 the same and just compensate the gain by tuning the the amplification voltage, it's true that planar console on
differently. It had a internal resistor chain. so it.
It. It may be that your operation is kind of different.
Well, it is different But, I'm. just reporting my experience that I develop a field that you don't want to run high gain with large number of Mcps. you know we we can get by with one single
Mcpn a paper that once You have many and large system. then that's the question You will have to answer. No, no.
We're also coming to realization that the pre amplifiers are absolutely needed for for these stars to do to to run them at relax settings.
Yeah, So essentially all i'm saying, is that you will have to develop that feel yourself alright.
I should not say feel it's an experience basically and Then you can say, Okay, I can run at this increased voltages because of this.
Yes, but as long as you only partner, recover the actual game with raising this voltage, so what would be the mechanism, the actual mechanism which contributes to faster aging context and things like that?
It could be a light emission from from Mcp.
Which is increasing and noise I don't know I I have not developed feel.
Maybe Albert Lemon has a comment that because he has observed the similar things.
I know it's sort of multipliers the the the dinos gets the sensitized right, and they so with high currents you can actually damage them.
So it is it's still it's a photo emissive service.
So it may be something going on at the surface of the as but there is no higher current, so the current will be the same, because it's kind of what is it in .
It. It could be some sort of hot spot with which is creating.
You know Ions coming back, He we create secondary electrons and it's just kind of keep going and and the tube is unstable
Time. so amplification 140 times amplification, that was basically initially.
I started with 10 you know, thinking because I didn't know but bid slowly my slowly, step by step, I concluded that in order to the successful after test, which had a large number of pixels, we have to run with high, gain and
so that's what we did we had our home unpleasant Initially it started as 40 or then we added another factor of 3, .
So total gain electronics gain was 140.
Andcp was running at few times 10 to the 5 yeah it's also about minimizing the extracted curve.
So if there are limitations on that side as well
Mark, but Picky here. So one thing we noticed in the magnetic field is that the dark rates actually were quite low.
Another comment is, when you get over to a steep angle a jin.
She showed that when we get to one Tesla there yeah falls off beyond, say, 30 degrees, plus minus 30 degrees.
But you can still recover it again, using the same method of increasing the Mtp.
Voltage if you like, even to say one e, 6 or 5 E.
5, so that you still have some headroom there. The whole structure the La Ppd is actually good to something like 1,250 volts per Mcp.
Or more because when we first started making them we had to use aluminum oxide, which is a very poor again.
And so the structure was built for that And then the final comment I just wanted to make was about the capacity couple devices.
So you. We probably remember for today earlier discussions there standards signal board that we ship the devices with is picking up signals, not only capacitively, but also inductively, because we have transformers all over the back and my suspicion is
that those transformers were sort of frozen there it means you're sort of frozen in place by the magnetic field of the solenoid here.
So we're going to go back again with a capacitively couple device with a single board with no transformers on the bank.
If I can mark your observation the rate of thermal for the electrons goes down.
Yes, is that a hint that may be overall. efficiency goes down.
Do we have information about the overall efficiency?
Yes, because at the end the makeup is the same. I guess we could tell. so I should do this with the data analysis.
I guess we could tell from the the number of times we fire the laser to the number of responses that we see.
That would tell us if our efficiency is changing.
And of course, The question is to me that builds off.
Of the last question is, if you raise the magnetic field of the dark red drops.
But then, you do what what's shown here you raise the the voltage to compensate for it.
Does your dark rate. go back up or not yeah we we didn't pay a lot of attention to dark rates.
I'm sorry to say, Oh, we'll We'll focus on that more when we go back in january.
But they they dark rates would go up somewhat but still it's pretty quiet.
It's unusually quiet when you have the magnetic field.
There Now, if you take away the magnetic field and leave the Amcp voltage high.
Of course the dark rates will return to a very high value, but the devices are actually quite well behaved in that strong magnetic field, and and so I think to get to Soviet question.
Maybe we should look at the response to the laser as a function of the magnetic field strength to get a kind of a course estimate of where the detection efficiency.
Is changing. My sense is that it didn't change did not change but we should do that quantitatively .
Mark a quick suggestion. If you want to use an inside outboard without transformers in the magnetic field, why don't you use the Lumberghini board?
We could. I think we can. We had one. What I was thinking of with the single board was.
We had a board made with an spi, or that we did with Nylu. and it has these precise pixel arrays on the on the rear side. And then I have these little plugin Boards similar to what Alexander was
showing as a concept for the Hr. Ppd. and that one does a reasonable job transferring signals.
And so, that would be sort of the simple way to do it without having to bring power into the board, where it sits in the magnetic field.
So that was my first option. Okay, we have to move on.
Sorry. can be there more questions and comments for the end I Guess i'll put them in the chat.
Okay, can you please stop setting? Sure, or you can continue commenting while I'm trying to share my screen
Okay, Do I see my type of slide? Yeah, we see Simona.
Alright, so I got so as they have the funding in the 422 for Lpd study, the idea was to ask income to make a new at PCD.
With the quantum efficiency and uniform gain across Ncc.
Area and the smaller distance between the last Mtp.
And Annot going from 6.6 kilometers to 3.
And this lap Pd. I will have rented for a year, and we have been
The idea of having a smaller gap between the Mtp.
2, and annot plus 2, reduce the basically the size of the chat cloud at the annals, and also hopefully to make it more registered to the to magnetic.
Field. it would look in in company, for in terms of them, but with voltage cards and that correct.
And then, I was planning to measure the trust throughout the radius.
And also investigate. If we see Jane variation because of foreshadowing
Then my plan was to do This would cost me great and heavy gas before afraid.
I try to catch your light from you. on you think I think you later actually 2 planes of intel like this in the cloudy matter, as it's figured.
There are several attempts to to make this new L. A. Ppd.
So I got fun dt enough for 2022 and The lead time for the delivery of the Lpvd was like 3 to 4 months, so I should have gotten it done earlier.
The sometime at the end of February. I do not have it here, but the income.
Let's Lindsay lpc research to do some tests and I guess.
Come up with a proof of thank you for what I had in mind, so as of now.
I do not have the new electricity but i've been starting my tests on Lfpc.
Is 38 so i'll be showing a product on detection results, and trying to make some very small information for led light to move out measuring the charge cloud radius.
You see, did that Some pictures of my setup with L. A.
Pp* it's the left. so you see *speaker-overlap* home made the automation math on the face on this mask I do basically the pixelation we have like
a one by one in 3 outbreaks installation.
The black blob that is, some phone that has the led stuck in it, and underneath that there is a 2 halls.
No, that the lid light goes through to shine on the place of the Pm. team.
I've been using this rf amplifier Oh, who is they versus frequency, you see, to the right because recommended by Mark Second i'm using the the the pulse the fact coming from a person that
drives the lead also to figure out what the data acquisition system.
And here to the left button, you see on the scope basically the 3, the past that drive 30 in green, which is also the trigger, and then the L 55 teams. and this vertical lines that represent the
sampling window. for the digitizer i'm using in this case of 82 50, which yes, that's not sample fast enough.
For an L. A. Pdp Files but I'm touching the lap. Pds.
To a very long paper, a 100 meter long, so I get 3 to for example, auto wheat, and to the right to see
I must see. do you set up? There are several rates there.
One of them has the Fbc. to 50 in it, and then family modules.
So. The idea for the single quota restaurant detection was to take off it.
Number of 3 girls per led voltage settings as means of providing the probability of producing a single photo.
Electron set up in the top. left.
Is a variety of distributions. each of them has a different led voltage, meaning a different impact of photons shining on the on the face of the Lpd: and I'm always collecting a fixed number of
3 guys that distribution. So you see the progression of the probability of producing single for the restaurant this picking at the same location in the chat integral spectrum.
And the as I I start with a very low voltage all this, I think, let's say, 2 photons 2 I make mostly by the stars. so, and some in the photo restaurants, and you see that in yellow here and then
i'm providing slightly upward the voltage with the voltage of the led meaning more and more photons, meaning increasing the probability of producing things or photo electrons, and at some point i'm starting to make predominantly more than
one for the like. run out of the L. A. Ppd.
And you see this last spectrum here. you know things.
So like I was saying i'm using a for not for Nanos second every 4 nano second sampler that's 82 50 to to the right top you basically see the 4 9 a second
samples from the Fbc. with them ltp files in the center of the sampling window to the bottom.
You see how I define a path in this sampling window?
So. The Sidc dynamical range is one volt, meaning about point, 2, 4, 4 millivolts.
That channel. i'm setting thresholds for the to be like 20 channels about the pedestal.
Once the sample frost is threshold. The further start is calculating as the average over the 4 samples proceeding, the sample that passes the threshold, and then the pause is defined as the certain number of
samples, which is my choice. from the point where the first sample passes threshold.
So I choose 2 examples, so that's what you see at the bottom in the blue, and the charge integral which was shown here.
I guess top left it's calculating by basically calculating the intentral of this sampling this condition from the Pbc.
So we it changes polarity, so i'm calculating in the integral in absolute value, and adding it up.
So I tried the variety of Mcp. voltages, and for the package voltages, and I'm.
Showing here 900 calls on the Mtp. and 50 volts on the photo cache.
To the left, 90 Spino 50 to the right, you know.
I could very clearly see the single photoelectron distribution.
He is 8, 75 on Mtp. and 130 on the protocol.
Then then to the to the left, and to the right it's like 75 and 1 60.
Yeah, you'll see there is there are decisions where you clearly.
See that one and 2. The photoelectron I don't have.
So. this is not really appropriate for this distribution.
I have to make out the convolution, and there and I have
I have a I guess the M A pmt response function that has worked in the past for me to fit single photo electron data from I'm a Mtmp. so I haven't tried it yet under A Pd but That's the
plan for now i'm just speaking just to provide a sort of to guide the eye to see what the single call's electronic based study.
So the idea was to to do this, and then use the
One of these voltage, G for Mcc.
And for the package or settings to look at the to look into measuring the charge.
Clouds radius, and that's where i'm at right now.
So I picked the 800 7,550 volts on the between on the foot of hatred.
And I went down to a 1 automation hall in the mass of the L. A.
Pd. So when I do that, I get the distributions to the to the left side.
The top is the charge integral that's what it is I was explaining earlier.
And then the button needs iraq estimate of the ampute and I so that's where i'm at.
Basically the idea would be to the the 1 a whole that'd be like goes through place at the center of the so called pixel.
And then I try, and then I check if there is any significant charge selected on that Jason.
6,000 that's not so. this basically tells me that the the charge of cloud is content within within this pixel the time looking at when I play some of right right at the center of the picture the idea would be to move this
1 for information. hold hours the edge of the pixel and see when roughly, 30% of the of the charge is collected by the adjacent pixel.
So then I would call the district between that particular automation, whole location and the edge of the pixel.
Roughly the the radius of the charge cloud so I don't have a number yet for that.
But that's where i'm at so what's coming up.
Thank you. Basically, optimization for the for this setup to measure the chash drop gradient.
So that is the 1 size for the formation.
All right. show them based on the 4 sides, and then
I guess there of hitting just 1 4 in the first Mtp.
With them with a photon, so But there may be then maybe some acceptability coming from that, so I don't think I can make that smaller.
So automation hold, but I can I can make it slightly larger and see what happens.
So there is also change. so that's what I mean by optimization.
Also the idea was to have just right overlap 2 of these charge cloud once.
I know their size and see if there is any game variation before sharing.
Like our thing. i'm using a slow digitizer for
How fast reli So I bought a Kane V. 1742.
But it's not set up yet. so the idea was to switch to this one.
With respect to Digitizer for the bench test, at least either.
I cannot take it, indeed. And then I say, we have the real team that I can use on the bench to cross, and the recall that And then, like I was saying for 4 months.
Speak of them. I get single photoelectron and more type of electron distribution to extract characteristics of the single photoelectric response of the Lpd: using this I guess add hope for L
a Ppd response function I'm. giving out about them or an example of how it looks like when I meet the Hamama to Pmt. with the Pmt.
Response function that's well known then so this would happen with * *, because I don't have the new lap Pdf: So once they have the new one I would do all these and then proceed with the test, it
cost me great and hopefully installing dean when I think I'm ready, and I understand the new device, and that is also an opportunity to do magnetic in measurement with the Co.
2 at Jailap Co. 2 is a jail up to be preferred.
Zoom in case the solid that's fun pretend runs become the project.
So C. o 2 has up to 1.4 8 that's uniform field at the at the center of the board, and there is
There is an opportunity to do this. So I think this is my last slide.
We have 5 min for comment and discussion
Hello! Can you see my hand? I have to execute this one.
Yeah, go ahead. Sorry. Yeah. Okay. So yeah i'm a little surprised.
If you go back to your slide the 6 or so you you say you're seeing single photoelectron distribution.
And you say well here's the second and so forth that I I don't see that so clearly.
There, and i'm wondering why why is this single for that kind of solution so bad.
Then, because you like in a sipm, you would see 1, 2, 3, very clearly.
And if you're taking one photoelectron, and amplifying it, 10 to the sixth, or something like that, you should get very good statistics, it should be very narrow, and you would get the you would see these peaks.
and it also doesn't sort of look like a poisson distribution of, you know, much less it's what I was saying basically that I would have to use this kind of fitting procedure and see like
in here. You see a similar response from an Mmp.
From Hawaii and a single photo electronic to what you see in blue.
Basically very small, but at the level of the size of the poor, the whole, the the poorest, The photon density is still very high.
So you still have. You could have many photons over this 1 whole.
The density of photons over 1 is could be the same as an observer.
5 or less so Why, don't you just put a neutral density filter in and attenuate the flux down over the size of the hole, and you could get you can Then you could see the photons get down to where
it's Clearly you should get a poisson with a mean of less than one, and one and 2, and so forth.
If I can, 2 comments here. one is about the general shape of the amplitude distribution.
When you start from one single photo, electron the shape that you Expect is a Polyia distribution, which is is it?
It's it's it's large after metric and large, so they shape is from here.
Do not surprise me about being sure that you have one single propellant.
You have to understand the ratio of like pies over sync or better singers that you, the tech dog, a light pice it has to be.
I tell you the level of a very few percent Certainly below 5% to be in single photoelectron mode.
I don't know if you have this information
With filters to where you get much, much less than one, and then you can go up, and you see one, and then you c 2, and so forth.
So is to do it just by reducing the area.
The flex of photons over 1 1 with a 10 micron or 20 micro?
Or is it the same as it is over over 5
I would I would make a comment that's exactly what I used to do just using filters.
Yeah, you can actually use my life filters. I mean you know it doesn't have to be expensive.
No, true; but here here the photon intensity is driven by the voltage on the led, and it leads almost to the same result.
You you should just there is confusion here I'm not claiming i'm making one photon out of the ed.
I'm just saying i'm extracting one for the electron out of the photo castles that's very different.
If you look at this distribution let's say this one the smallest one on the if you look at the y-axis scale, what you don't see here, because it's subtracted is the pedestal so
for that particular violet distribution. if you if I would have shown the pedestal. You see that most of my triggers are pedestal.
So i'm making like very few for for per number of 3 that i'm making 2 3 good photo electrons, one photo from the photo Catholic then I slightly body the voltage of the led meaning that
i'm making a few more photons so i'm increasing. then the probability of producing more trigger with one photo electron out of the photo atoms that are you see this progression of the charge integral distribution picking at the same
location. But you see that the pedestal events now move into this distribution that I call predominantly single photo electron distribution from the photo pattern.
And then, you see, in this case, basically the one and the 2.
And the first that is 3 and the 4. if I would do a proper free tweet for the lapd response function.
So, whether you attenuate or you change the voltage on the led to value the number of both sides.
I think the same results it's it's I mean it it's you're just sort of assuming you change the voltage on the Led, and you get more single photons that way.
But you could get more multi photons, too. I I That's a misunderstanding. what she said.
What she said is when she increases the voltage on the led.
The number of photons that get produced in the Led will increase.
How, however, because of quantum efficiency of the photocatter, and whatever you still only detect at most one no, not necessarily.
But I mean, how differently would you do that I mean if the peak moves!
Then you show immediately that's what she says sure if your peak moves.
Then you have more than one, but that peak does not move so.
But I mean in the end using the the voltage over the Led is a totally equivalent than using pictures.
I mean It's There's no difference then the the reason why you cannot see this thing.
Pix is just because the distribution is much wider with the but with a silicon.
Pm: So Yes. Well, that's that's no remote it's like a normal pmt.
We? If you would use a normal Pmt: you would see exactly the same thing.
Yeah, yeah, I think I did use i'm a pmp from Hamama, too.
And guys. So exactly the same thing it's actually published in June. my result of last year.
Okay, thank you. Thank you for your comments. we have to move on I don't want to be over. time.
I don't want to give myself special treatment in any way so I stopped shutting, and
Oh, Amanda, please go ahead. Okay, Thank you. Can you hear me?
Yeah, great
Can everyone see my side? So yeah, I can hear you saying fantastic.
So I was asked to give the latest news from the annie experiment, and Annie is short for the accelerator, neutrino, neutron interaction experiment. it's a neutrino experiment deployed on
the Fermi lab booster, neutrino beam, and the Physics School of Annie is to measure final state neutron.
You from neutrino nucleus interactions. But Annie also acts as an R.
And D platform for new neutrino to detection technologies and techniques.
And in particular our focus is in 2 main areas, fast photo sensors in particular.
La Pd lapds and new detection media such as Galileadium lookloaded water, which is what we're using right now, and water based liquid scintillator.
We're an international collaboration of about 45 people from 5 different countries.
So the Anni detector is shown on the right of the slide, and it consists of a steel tank that holds 26 tons of Galileine loaded water, and The active.
Volume is instrumented with 132 pmps, ranging from 8 to 11 inches in size, and initially 5, 11 lap ppds, which are arranged downstream of the beam
line in an ex configuration. we also have a front uton vita new on Gito, which is simply a couple of overlapping layers, scintillated scintillator paddles, Excuse
me, and these are there simply to reject muons that don't originate from neutrinos actually interacting in the volume of Tank and The other key elements that I want to mention here is the muon range.
Detector which is an iron absorber and scintillator switch that provides us with our Me on identification and detection.
The lapds, as you can see in the bottom image.
Unfortunately, my mouse is not working for pointing so hopefully you can see it without me.
Gutting is mounted. The lapds are mounted on support boards that are then slid on rails in between the Pmts, which you can also see mounted on the iron support structure the steel support structure that guards
the outside of the tank, so I will cut to the chase.
The the single biggest piece of news that I have that is new since we last gave a presentation back in March 22 at this meeting is that we have deployed our first La Ppd.
So-called La Ppd number 40.
You can see the Qa. scan on the left hand side for la!
You could be 40, which was done some time ago, and on the right you can see a top down view of La Ppd.
40 on its support structure being maneuvered into place in one of the slots in the top of the tank
Now this lapd was deployed a few weeks after we gave our presentation at this meeting, and March 20 ninth of 2,022, and it's been continuously underwater since that day it's been
operating stably. this slow controls. monitoring shows us that the humidity, temperature and voltage fall remain within specifications throughout that time, and when we had them we have been taking data with the license when we did the mounting
being position. reconstruction for us is crucial in Annie.
We, of course, measured the position of the lapd on the mounting board to a sub centimeter level, and you can see on the right in much more detail what that mounting board and the La ppd on it would look
like, and you can see that the Lapd is inside a productive housing.
Since we operated underwater, and neither water or nor gadolinium Loaded water is friendly to the la Ppd.
It's inside a ppc housing with a clear acrylic window and a metal back plate, and both the La Ppd and the the readout electronics are packaged in that water type container the white are the
signal cables coming out of the device and the housing.
So this is the first lapd that has ever been deployed underwater, and it's the first lappd deployed in a running high energy Physics Experiment.
This is a huge milestone for us and we're really really excited.
Before I go on to show you a couple of plots from the data.
So this first lapd I wanted to give you a little bit more context on the readout electronics and the entire setup that we have for the Lap, Pd.
And how it interfaces to the breast of the experiment.
So Annie has a central clock that is, 125.
Megahertz, and Annie also receives information from the for me.
Loud beam from the booster neutrino beam.
And we have a electronics that then provide both that clock and information about the beam still start to the Lapd electronics.
And if, in particular, the piece of equipment that receives this information is the any central card, and this is the custom card that's designed to operate in tandem with epsilon electronics, the Acdc cards
that digitize the lap. Pd: signal center mounted on the La Ppd and the water.
The Acc. takes that 125 Megahertz clock.
It latches its own in internal 40 Megahertz clock to that central clock via a face locked loop, and it also and it reprocesses that information about the beam spill start and both of
Those are then distributed down through the waterproof cables into the tank to the Acdc.
Cards. Those same cables receive data back from the Acdcs as well
There's also a surface breakout box that handles the slow control.
So trigger configuration, environmental modern brain power, distribution, all of that
We've seen the lapd deployment package we have the lappd itself, and we have the readout electronics and an auxiliary board that manages the power distribution for both the high
it it. so it that contains the high voltage power supply, and as much of the low voltage power management as we could move off of the readout cards.
And and there is a reason for this so as I said before because we're operating under water.
We need to operate inside a protective housing on the other hand, it's desirable for us to mount being read at electronics directly on the La Ppd.
And in fact, we have we've replaced the income backplane with a custom analog pickup board of our own, and the readout cards are mounted on that back.
Plan. So that allows us to minimize latency it allows us to also minimize the number of cables that we have to pull out of the housing because we're only sending up the digital summary of what's already
been read out. We don't have to send up cables to handle each channel independently.
Which also minimizes our lead risk. however, it comes at a price, because we have to put all of this into the small housing, and that means that thermal issues from generated from the readout electronics, because we're generating
a fair amount of heat and noise become more of an issue for for us in that compliance space.
In particular, we're worried about affecting the indium seal of the lapd, or having hot spots underneath the lapd.
So what we do is that we, by moving all of the power that we could off of 3 dot electronics and keeping it on an uncillary board, we protect the La Ppd as much as possible, and we did require several
iterations of that scenario before we got to the the perfect spot that allowed us to operate comfortably at a good temperature inside the housing
So the 2 Ac Dc. boards instrument the back of the Yale ppda.
As I said, these contain the psect chips that capture signals from both sides of each strip line and digitize them at 10 giga samples per second for each riplorine for each side
of each strip line we have a 25 nanosecond buffer the lapd triggers asynchronously.
Within a 20 microsecond programmable beam window that starts at when the package in the water receives the beam spill.
Start signal. Right now we have an external trigger card that replaces the onboard triggering of the Acdc. cards.
For this iteration. before you make a difference. Clock is multiplied up times 8 to give us 3 Nan a second time, stamping of both the being windows start and the trigger arrival.
We can improve on this by fitting the analog signals captured by the psi chips to extend an exact time within the clock.
40 Megahertz clock cycle this is highlighted in rent, because that is still a work in progress.
So here is the other money plot. this shows, the time between the Beam spill start has received by the Lap Pd package in the water, and the trigger signal that is produced by the auxiliary
trigger card on the lapd so the lapd is self triggering as long as the being Window is live, and what you can see is that there's an excess above background which are the lapd triggered events that
are in time with the booster neutrino beam.
It has a width of 1 point, 6 microseconds, which is exactly what we would expect for a booster neutrino beam beam spill.
That is the width of the beam spill.
I have kept the full 20 microsecond windows so that you could see the level of the background.
But I should note that we have looked at this, matching it to the rest of the information from the Annie detector, and requiring a single trap from the Muon Range detector, is enough to effectively eliminate that background
script that you see around the beam spell peak.
So this is another world. first, because we have the first neutrinos observed ever with an lapd on this slide.
So this was extremely for exciting for us the day that we actually got to see this, and just to convince you that we know what we're doing.
Here's another plot that just shows an alternate view of the same data.
So this shows you the distribution of strip multiplicity.
The number of lapd scripts in an events with pulses above some threshold.
For both the off scheme data in blue and the in time data with the be in red.
And you can see that these distributions are different, and the excess that you see beyond the blue in the red distribution.
Those are expected to be the neutrino events. So, in order to get to the new news first, I alighted a little bit over the characterization and integration, testing that we do
But to reassure you that we've done to diligence.
I wanted to show that here all of our characterization and integration testing for the lapds is done in a dedicated dark box facility at Fermi lab where we have a scanning motor stage with
the pi last laser mounted on it. 30 peak, a second post laser, and we can use that to characterize the gain of the system.
The timing of the system, and also the quantum efficiency of the La Ppds.
We have done initial tests on all of the 5 La Ppds that will go into the system for characterization, and we're repeating those as part of our integration, testing now to the other 4 Lapds that still need to go into
the water. All of them do meet Annie requirements. and but the full integration testing allows us to test all of the deployable electronics and the data acquisition system as well.
So we're in the process a set of testing and deploying 4 more lavs in 2 sets of twos so unlike the first La Ppb, which was deployed on its own.
We are going to have to mount the next. 2 pairs up on the same support structure together, and deploy each of them in in the column of 2 lapds.
What i've shown here on this slide are hot off the press Characterization Plots for the next lapd in the sequence La Ppd.
64, and what you can see is that there's significant variability la Ppd. 40.
The one that is in Annie right now, has relatively low gain for the set of 5.
It's around 10 to the sixth it was a few times 10 to the sixth, if we pushed the voltage settings at the conservative settings that were operating at right.
Now we believe it's it's closer to 10 to the sixth, while at this Lapd has a means gain of about 1.7 times 10 to the seventh. the transit time spread with all over the electronics right
now is around 120 peak a second we think we can improve on this.
It looks like we're getting a small secondary peak that may be due to reflections, and we're investigating that right now.
So what have we learned from this entire process? it certainly became true that for our use case, or for anyone who hopes to deploy lapds in a confined space and a protective housing underwater keeping noise and heat
sources as far away from the La Ppd as we can this essential and that needs to be factored into your electronics design.
So power management belongs on an auxiliary board.
Not it, and as much of that as you can should be removed from the lappd mounted readout.
And you also have to be very careful. with your grounding scheme.
When you are routing everything down 7 to 10 meter cables.
We also find that gain and optimal HD settings and microchannel plate.
Resistances are still varying for our set of 5 la Ppds significantly between them.
And that does present some challenges for us right now.
We only really had room on an auxiliary.
So controls board for one power supply for high voltage, And that meant we used a resistive divider network with potentiometer resistors to divide that down to get exactly the right voltages for each of the
Micro Channel plates in the photo capital for the La Ppd.
It would be ideal if we could have A. design that independently controls those settings for different La Pv layers, because we did run into some limitations because of this. but it's very difficult to do with a limited real estate and
work, still thinking of creative solutions for the next generation. this hockey salary board that would allow us to do it.
The other thing that we find because of course, we had the auxiliary trigger card we needed to install. And because we're using a custom backplane, is it changes to those electronics elements currently require opening
the la Ppd frame develop, being a generic design, and I believe Matt Whatzene made the same thing when he gave his presentation.
Back in March 2022 a generic design that limits the need for having to open the frame over and over again is desirable, particularly if you're scaling to large experiments.
You want to be able to ship these boards, have have them installed, and then work with them already.
Set up for your use case in your electronics so green on the design that everybody can design to for the back plane would be very, very helpful.
And the other comment I wanna make is that work on photon disambiguation?
In a Gen. one la Ppd with strip lines it for us in a realistic multi-p scenario, we're looking at real data in the water with real electronics, with all of the the problems that go along with that
that is ongoing We had already had proof of principle for this in idealized monte Carlo, and we're now wrestling with what that looks like when you add extra noise into your data and other features that are
coming from elsewhere in your detector. so please stay tuned you'll hear from us hopefully shortly on that.
Thank you. summary. Sorry Yeah, we are over time.
Okay, I was. Yeah, I was just to see the time.
So much as I hate it. so. we have 5 min for discussion
Oh, thank you i'm on the I I raised my hand So think i'm under this it's very interesting to see that you guys are really far ahead of all of us in terms of the practical deployment.
I had a simple question. So you mentioned 20% of qe as you measured during the Q. A.
Process. So so. yes, so it varies from ly Ppd.
To lapd the first few that we got I think we're closer to 10%, and the more recent ones got close.
20% is a rough number. I think it ranged from somewhere around 18 to 20.
Something. I don't remember the exact numbers for each la ppd off the top of my head, but they were all in that ballpark.
My question is, Are you measuring Qe or the actual Pd.
So i'm measuring the photocat of current or the signals with the whole stack, and at which wavelengths, by the way.
That's a good question. Those measurements actually predated me me working on this aspect of the experiment.
And I don't know the top of my head.
I would have to look that up for you. I think I can answer, Yeah,
So we measured the photo current from the photo cathode So it is Qe.
So of how much is lost in the stack?
No, at least not during the time that I was supporting it I mean I've been out of this for about a year now, because i'm in Germany.
But during the time that I was there it to my knowledge, it was just the photo current measurements, Okay, we're setting up for measurements for you know, measuring events.
But that was later No. But okay. but this means that it is integral, or you where it in different way.
Blank, and it was in the app single wavelength.
So it's really a spectrum versus wavelength of one.
Okay, Thank you very much. Yeah, that's what it was this You were using the same laser as we use for everything else.
Right, Bernard. So it it's gonna we're using an lid of course, not a laser.
Okay, So you used. So you were. Do you remember which led you were using I think it was 405 nanometers?
But need to check with the guys in the lab an important thing to realize is that a lot of you know, Annie has deployed led Ppd 40.
We're making lap pd 148 this week.
So our quantum efficiency average has steadily increased since the first La Ppds we sent to Annie to now. So that's one of the reasons for the discrepancy between 20% average and what we
claim is 30% average. now. in fact, was not the oldest lap Ppd. Re.
Received, but it was the first fella ppd you received that was in spec.
So Okay, we have to move on. Thank you. Amanda.
Alright, Charles, sorry to stop the applied. Please go ahead and share your slide.
Hi, there, Can you hear me? Okay, Well, Yeah. good group
Okay, And can you see this full screen? Okay. Great:
So i'm gonna discuss the lap pd activities at Glasgow.
So this is really on behalf of Frank Thompson, and Bjorn, who I've seen in participants.
So if I get something wrong, please correct correct me. So at Guys go we have this lap.
Pd. 1 20 from income, so you can see a picture of it here installed in a black box which we use for testing.
Now you can see, an X-ray scanners with the laser mounted here.
So these are some details on the the device so it's 20 by 20 cm square square, square, grid arrangement of these pixels, and with capacity coupled readout and generation.
2. So an update is that the magic box has been constructed as per G. guidance for a grind.
Reference to Hv. supplies, and and these are the details on that here.
So first measurements the for these measurements you can see a trace on the oscilloscope here.
So the voltages were slowly increased until the dark kites were observed, and and these are the settings that were used for data taking.
So we have the Mcp. and the Photo castle voltages, and and then a series of these past Gaussian shape.
Pulses were seen. So here you can see the single single photoelectron level pose, and you you possibly can't see it.
The the Y skills 2 millivolts per division, and we have one nanoseconds per division on the time scale And then to further quantify the the dark times.
The The device was coupled to a ken waveform. Someone digitizer Dt.
57, 30, b and for one and a half hours.
And then here you can see the time between events and one channel, and from this the average dark country was extracted as 3.3 times per second per channel.
And then here is just the amplitude distribution of these dark cones in the channel which you can see here above the pedestal
Okay. So next next step after the the national setup was the cosmic Re test.
So for this plastic a plastic scintillator was used, and this was 5, 5, 5 cm square title of eg.
200, which was placed on top of the central pixels of the la pvd
This was the the central 4 pixels you can see, and example of the waveform shape here on the oscilloscope.
And then this was then right. I like to run for 48 h, and 8 channels were recorded around the center of the lapd, using the digitizer again.
So the ones under the crystal and the ones beside the crystal as well.
Here you can see, a typical amplitude spectrum.
Okay, from one of the channels
Okay, And here on the right, this is the responses of the pixels.
So in this graph. These are the 8 pixels. The The red box is the position of the scintillator, and and the color is the counts above threshold.
Purple in that these graphs is 0 so i'll go to the next slide.
But what's interesting here is that these 3 pixels you can see counts above threshold.
So centulator counts but one corner here, which Max to Pixel d 4, shows no, no events above the pedestal
And this here you can see the the amplitude distributions.
So you can see where we have the signals. and then this is the d 4 pixel here, where there was no kinds of the threshold observed, So this is something that will have to be investigated farther with a white the device
1 22. Okay, So this this is that was a report on the the recent sort of set initial measurements with this device, which is exciting to see
And here we've just detailed some of the the a a comedian.
Next step and Maryland plan at class school with this device.
So this includes a game scans and transit team scans we're, and with our our setup just now we we use a laser trigger.
But we want to improve the setup to include a beam splitter and a reference Pmt.
To trigger on and remove the the any trigger and we'd like to do a course fill area scan of the the device with a laser.
So we have 2 wavelengths and Glasgow.
These are a blue one and a red one, and and we can.
We can set a quite faint steps over x by scanning stages you saw, so we'd like to start with the order of a millimeter steps scan and millimeter, p and then moving on from that the next
step would be to use, high resolution scanning steps.
So something submitted to scan over a limited area with these 2 wave ones
And then something which has already been studied in our lab with a since. liters and silk, and full to multipliers is the separation of tranco and scintillation light from there.
These Pg o wise, or i'm looking forward centers. So that's something that would be interested we would be interested to study with this device, and that's a future plan and then and we also want to put this
into a cosmic retail stand which i'll discuss about, and a few sites.
So this is just somewhere more details about the the laser scanning test.
And at Glasgow, and so the plan is to use our picosecond laser to perform a high precision.
Steps scan so we can get down to the step sizes of 0 point.
One micrometers, and the laser spot size is adjustable from from these ranges.
This is the laser Jeter. license.
3 peak seconds a sharp pulse with, and, as I said, we have 2 wavelengths.
At the moment it and this is kind of a a detailed diagram of the setup.
So we have a device under under test or xy stage with the filters in a light type box, and we have the option to have this vme based redout, as you can see here, where we're triggering on
the the laser, or we could all we can also, and attach the device to the Kan digitizers or fast oscilloscope as well.
But we would also like to study, Of course, the transit team spread as well, and and scans to look at the the uniformity of this across the device. and and so to do that we think rather than triggering on this laser
that an upgrade that we're planning for this this box is to use a fast photon detector, and with a beam splitter to to trigger on one laser path to eliminate walk on the laser
trick or signal. Okay, the other and configuration we'd like to test this, and is our cosmic retail standards.
So you can see this here, actually here you can see that this is the light type.
B, where the La Ppd is housed just now. This is the oscilloscope, and then this is our cost meeting on stand.
So we previously used this this set up actually to study me Pmt's for the the class 12 rich detector, and how it works as we have the these plastic scintillator bars top, and bottom and they have
they're red at each end by an xp 2,020 pmt.
As a muon passes through, and then we have our device under test here, and possibly an average out title here, so we can trigger on a coincidence trigger of these muons and also, and we can measure
the track angles as well. Okay, And this is just some, in example, old results of that we got with this test set up, and our H 8,500 Amp T. plus aerage out.
So you can see here some rings of on the pixels of the 8,500 from the area, and then in the middle you can also see some ram and rings of shrink of created in the window and as a new on pastor the glass
windows a pmt which we've cut out but you can see some some remnants there, and so our plans would be to put the alley ppd plus aerial radiator between these 2 bars and
and then we can a studies response to during Covid the other thing.
So we recently got involved with what this Erd * proposal for the enrich project, R and D.
And the next fiscal year, which was led by Jitrin and Marco.
So this proposal is for the enrich r and D.
Which is a compact module which which should fit within the eic space requirements.
And these are the the the behaviors the performance sorry so it's pione on separation from 2 to 8 g.
V over C and the electron pile up to 2 gv and it's an aerial plus focusing system that has proximity focusing modular dictator.
So our initial plans for this would be to evaluate the lapd and redo options for the La Ppd for this rich to take. Sure it was just quite exciting for us, because we really always wanted
to to get back involved with rich studies of photon detectors.
And and so the Ic. is a really exciting opportunity for that.
Obviously. And so what we plan to do is test our existing Le Ppd with aer job tiles and and the cost me span, which I showed you.
So we do have some old Errors hotel, but it would be nice to get some new ones.
And then another thing that we plan to do is to value reader options.
So the specifics of these are still under development. one thing We're quite interested in is that we may have the opportunity to study a Pcc. system from Kan.
Initially, we were thinking to test this with silicon pms
With this I can a rock asic B. redo, which is connected to this people.
Ddc. which supposedly should offer very high timing resolutions on the order of a picosecond.
And so it could be interesting to to connect that to the Si Ps.
And also evaluate if it's something that could be useful for Ltpd And we're also really interested to good going to keep our eyes open for potential sources of funding to apply for the the 10 by
10 cm device which should would match the footprint of the enrich modules.
Actually, because the twentys centre one is to march.
Okay, so sorry i'm a bit faster than the time slot I think.
But just the summer I saw we have a the income 120 devices a 20 by 20 cm, ly pvd. and studies are ongoing. It's been successfully installed in our our white
tape box and we've seen measure the dark country and initial signals from Muons and a plastic scent later, which is a really exciting
We. we plan to perform a series of tests using these existing Charactersization stands in classical, and this includes upgrading the laser, scanning test system for transit team studies and and also for the rich
studies, and we plan to work at the response to irregular in the cosmic stand.
And that brings us to the end
Thank you, Rachel Alexander. have a question. Yeah. A quick comment. Thank you, Rachel. Very interesting.
So first we, of course, should integrate you in erdogan next year, or in the course of the coming here.
And second is indeed the 10 cm Hr. ppds, and should pretty much fit.
You know the the size of a module pretty well, and if you are interested, so once we have this now, you can integration package finished, and it is that it works.
Of course we can share it. So once you agree with income to rent the title.
So just just bear this in mind. Okay, that's excellent you have to connect with that.
Thank you very much. That sounds really exciting.
We have time for one question uncommon. Exc Excuse me, you might improve.
Quality of chern coverings if you add some absorber for me, because, with the existing stand, I think that you are getting a lot of softy mules which will spread the eternal offering okay that's an
interesting idea. I think I think that would be something that would be great to try.
Thanks for the suggestion. I know in the in the past that we had a stack of lad at the bottom to kind of hey?
Yeah to try and harden the spectrum. So maybe adding some absorb material could could be a really nice addition to this.
Thank you for that tip.
One, of course, needs a lot of iron at the okay that's another story about the other.
Would help already. Okay, Great. Thank you.
Anything else for Rachel
Okay. So according to the agenda we have let me 10 min break about right now.
I did see some comment in the chat to a lot more time for 20, even if we go over time.
I was that by here you got to keep the time very Sickly. so i'm sorry for being the bad guy but for our Italian colleagues it's like 9. Pm.
Now and that just halfway through that's why I interrupted you and I didn't mean to be rude.
We just have to as a quarter to those that are in Europe.
We just have to try to keep the time. So thank you all, and have a 10 min break, and we resume format of that.
Pretend engine to which, or the next half of your workshop.
Thank you.
Okay, Yeah, i'll start now let me just share my screen.
Can you see my screen? Yes, yes, and you can hear me.
Probably right, Okay, yeah. yeah, Well, thank you.
For giving me an opportunity to talk about our work here at Qta.
This work is done at the picosecond test lab we have by the by, the by, the principal.
In this you get to Prosper, Andrew Grant, and I am a research assistant professor looking here.
So, as the name suggests, we'll be talking about the lifetime testing of a lf Pd.
Which we did here some time back. So so the lifetime of a micro channel pay for to multiply our tube.
Okay. The lifetime of a micro channel paid for multi-lap tube.
Is mainly limited. because of the I am is believed to be limited because of the damage costs by the Ion feedback
Back to the photo cathode, which, where the positive items can either stick to the surface of the photocath or can sputter the surface of the photo cat, or changing the photo cap of chemistry and this ions might be produced
during this electron amplification process which happens inside the ports of the Mcp.
It can be from the surface of the Mcp. itself,
Or it can be the ionization of the residual gases in in the ports.
The spot. So the the removal of the positive ions from the Mcp.
Services can also detrimental to the gain of the Mcp.
And the the presence of this, that positive ion feedback you can actually see in your signals.
If you were to look if you were to look at a lot of time scale from your main signal main signal means the signal which is associated with your incoming photon.
Then you can see it after a few nanoseconds like, say, 10 or 15 or 20, nanosecond.
Later, if you see some pulses that is most likely due to this.
After pulse. The The time at which this after pulse occurs is mainly determined by the time taken by the positive ion time of flight.
And so this can be actually become a poor man's time of light mass spectrometer, because the time of light just depends on the chat to mass ratio and the amount of electric field that you have applied between the
photo Cathode and the Mcps and the Mcp.
Game themselves. so you! The presence of this after pulse definitely shows that this process is happening, and it is widely believed that that is what is responsible for the damage.
No. How can you, avoid that? There has been landmark studies to avoid this process.
So one of the things you can do is to do, Alv.
Quoting inside the the Mcp. ports, so that the removal of this positive ion is suppressed.
Another thing is, you can code the surface of the Mcp.
With passage passive layer, so that again, once again the positive ion do not go back to the photo Catholic, and the third method, which is which you can do is you can put a grid in between the photo, cathode and the M
Cp. which you can bias net positive with respect to the top and Cp.
Such that the positive ones once again are not reaching to the food together, but are reflected back into the Ncp.
So there are many methods. So of these the first one, which is the ald quoting the third has been the most successful, and the pioneering work by
Lehman at all has shown how far we have progressed in extending the last lifetime of Mcp.
Pmt. from a few 100 milliculums to 20 coulomb per centimeter square.
So in this studies it is pioneering in the sense that because of the fact that they were able to measure the aging process of multiple and different kind of entities simultaneously, and there they had a full 4 16
animator led, which they homogeneously eliminated the entire, and Cp.
At a single P. U. 8, and I think there it was called Step one Megahertz, and the M. C.
Pmt with the Ld. quoted
The quoting technology developed by irradiance at all under the radiance to Tsbi.
I was the first Mc. Pmt. which was able to go beyond 10 Coulomb per centimeter square, and in this, in this particular study by layman, that's all they were able to for one of the M Cpm. Ts they were able to
go as far as that is, in 2,020, so it might have gone even further than that.
They could extend the lifetime to £26 per centimeter square.
Now since the entire Mc. Pmt. is radiated.
You need, actually, and and it is radiated at a single P level at a lower rate.
You actually need an extended period of radiation to achieve this integrated anode charge to provide to provide a clear feedback on the absolute detective lifetime.
So this measurement, as far as I believe, took close to 11 years.
To reach this 26 school and per city metal square, which is fantastic.
But the thing is that sometimes you need your feedback.
Whether you are in Cp. Pmt. design and the photo catalog chemistry that you have arrived at is good for is is with a long lifetime detector or not you want that feedback quickly so that
you can. She made changes to your design process and and just taking. So this is where we came in.
And we have developed a pixel based accelerated testing.
When I say pixel based it means that you've not to damage the entire M Cpm. T.
But you that damage only a small pixel of the of the M Cpm.
T which allows you to actually test the tube again.
If at the different configuration, if you want to change the configuration of the of the detector voltages that you have used, or something else and see whether whether you can extend the M Cpp empty lifetime
for example, operating the M. Cpm. Theta. over gain. But adding on the making up for that game with pre amplifiers, so that the overall lifetime can be extended.
But you need to test whether that will actually allow you to operate the
Mc. Ptm. T. for a longer time or not.
But if you change the M Cpm. T. completely, then it is not guaranteed right, like as the talks progress.
You have seen that there is significant difference between the behavior of one and Cpm. T.
To another M Cpm. T. 4 at least for Lpds.
So. so it. It is nice to actually radiate the same M Cpm. T.
At multiple locations in different configurations, and that allow you to completely understand the degradation process as well as your configuration and your design.
So one of the first things you have to make sure when we were developing this technique, 1 one of the important questions that we had to answer was, when you were damaging an M Cpm.
T at one single picture. Is that damage located only near that pixel?
Or is there some kind of global interaction happening, and which can cause damage at some other location of the
M. Cpm. T. So in the fixer based accelerated aging, we first said that the pixel base it is pixel based in the sense that the damage is localized.
So, for example, this is a 5 cm per 5 cm, and Cpm T.
Where we actually this. This this shows the number of photo electrons as yeah measured as scanned.
So you can see that we did this measurement at 14 electrons
And then we were looking at the the behavior of postal edition.
So what we did is we just this central line is actually not there.
It is just for us to know which which region that we have caught.
Irradiating. It was actually just back.
So we we were scanning only each quarter, and it was suspect.
So otherwise it is a uniform. It is a uniform quantum efficiency.
M. Cpm. T. So what we did is we radiated the first quadrant here, and then we went on to reduce the second quadrant.
We went on to read it the third quarter, and this is the result.
After after irritation, irritation means exposing the the tube to a not to right at higher intensity and at higher rate, and we see that the the performance of this quadrant which was not irradiated but
remains more, let's say so that way we became confident that the pixel based can be applied because the damage remains localized and interrupt.
There are no extended effects during this degradation process.
The second thing in the pixel based accelerated aging is that accelerated 80.
So is the question was, is when you are when you are radiating the tube at the right larger light intensity.
When the when the M. C. Pmt. is probably saturated, is the damage created similar to the damage created.
When you have the lifetime, testing like the previous, as done by layman at all.
Can they both be similar? So what i'm showing here is the
The current measured from a sip line L. A.
Ppd when both the Mcps are operating.
So you have 2 M. Cps the top, and Cpes is probably a take a high gain operation.
The second Mcps are also to high gain operation such that the combined gain is like 10 raised to 6 here.
And then what i'm doing, is i'm just measuring the current of the Annot strip and the So the x-axis is showing you the laser weight, and the y-axis is showing you the increase in the current that
you expect when you increase the laser rate. So, for example, you look at the current at 10 kilohertz, and then, when you increase the laser rate, to say 100 Kilohertz you expect that if nothing if
everything remains the same. You expect that the current extracted should be like 10 times
And so that is the that is the orange, which is basically a linear. increase.
Right. so it is just from 10 kilohertz it's like 10 times here.
So this is 100 floats, and so on. And now what we, what the blue show is actually the measured inputs when both the M.
Cps are operating. so so you should look at the current measure, and you see that even by say, 500 Kilohertz, you are not reaching the expected increase in the current, and and obviously the Mcp. 2 2 M Cpm
ts are saturated, and it's not able to to give you the gain of terrorist.
You 6 now. So this means that the entire device is saturated.
But the question is, is the saturation the same for the top?
And Cp. on the bottom and Cp. are not so.
The same light. Intensity is it is, is is the entire device itself is saturated, but is the top Mcp.
Saturate. Can that behave normally? So if it then what we did is we just took out the second M.
Cpv. Use the second M Cp. that is the bottom.
M. Cps the Annode. We were collecting the current of the second Mcp.
And you can see that the expected increase on the measured increase of the same.
So what if this tells you? And you can also see that it?
I can start measuring the current only about by 500 kilohertz.
Obviously, I am having only a single Mcp. so the current measure is much lower.
The game is only 10 raised to 3 or so so.
I can start measuring the current only at around this point, so that what this is telling you, which is which is intuitive, right?
So telling you is that the top Mcp. is behaving properly.
But because of this 10 raised to 3 gain the the second, and Cp.
Is the one which is getting saturated as you increase the lace of it. now.
So the top Mcp. is it's not saturated, even if you are operating at the say 100 Megahertz with the single P kind of behavior.
Now. So what is so important about the top in Cp: So what?
Our studies have indicated. it is that this is the top Mccp.
Which is responsible, which is the place from which this iron feedback mostly started.
Because of this chevron configuration. it is the ion ions from the top, and Cps are able to reach the the photo account. So if the top M Cp.
Is not saturated. If it is behaving properly, then the damage process should also be similar, even if it is not, if it should be similar.
For an accelerated aging, or if the non accelerated Ag.
To show that what i'm showing here is the single people Sync: P.
Like, Okay, So there are multiple pieces here. You can also see second 2 Ps here, anyway.
A single p like pulsite distribution. for the one of the one of the Lf.
Pds and and you can see that by 100. K.
The the purse has moved into the pedestal, showing that the same saturation behavior.
Now, even when the when the entire Mc. Ptm. T. is saturated.
If you look at there afterwards. and, as I told you, after pulse is an indication of this positive and feedback being happening, so, if you were to look at the after purposes the after process does not change whether it is 10 kilohertz
or 100 kilohertz. That is what is shown in this plot on the right hand side, which is this time is actually the time after the main part.
So you are looking at pulses which is occurring in 15 nanoseconds, 75 nanosecond cruise 190 s, and so on.
The ones that 200 times a second is most likely the ones which is having its massive ions.
Taking a longer time to reach the i'm say if you have to look at the rate.
The rate does not change. So even when the Ncp. and T.
Saturated. the after pulse rate is not changing, which tells you that it is the top and Cp.
Which is responsible. and since the stop and Cp is not saturated, the damage producing and feedback remains the same, and hence you can use a pixel-based accelerated testing for your lifetime measurements.
And so we did measurement. We use a pixel base accelerated testing for a M. C.
Pmt. from L. A. Ppd. This is L. A.
Ppd. 64 which whose parameters are given up Here it is it has 28 ships up here, and
So the irritation portion is up shown here. and so
The basic setup. is there. So before the life centers you do some pre characterization in a laser box where you have the laser box mutual and distant filters.
And you look at the M. Cpp. Empty characteristics and the M.
Cpp. empty characteristics are shown here them I'm, showing only the main one.
The one the one on the left shows you the game characteristic.
So this is a lap Pd. 64 is one with the very high gain.
It's close to like 6 or so 10 raised to my 10 to 17, and as you can see that as you go into a higher rate, it goes to saturation, and this is the transit, and spread for the
same. for the same measurement up here. the transit time spread does not show.
Show much degradation even during this saturation. Just to be sure, i'm only considering for this transit, and spread those pulses which make, which is which are about this threshold up here which is which are about this tissue and the sigma
attend was 80 per second or so. so since you can, you can.
Yeah, Yeah, can I just rush through the main research to do
So we did the lifetime, testing on the the L. A.
Ppd and the la Ppd. 64 did not show any degradation for almost that. that is the main.
The average pulse site of a single single people's that distribution did not show any variation up to like 5 pool of £5.6 per centimeter as well, and similarly, the number of courses about the
threshold. The The number of persons which is evolved about the threshold also did not show any variation, So this number of courses is an indication is directly proportional to the quantum efficiency and this
average fault site is a indication of the gain, so both of them did not show any variation, and this Mcpm. T.
Was setting back to it in com queues can, and, as expected, there was no damage.
Observed at the you related to Pixel. So just to find out why this Cpm.
T has a large a good lifetime to 5.4 cm square is because it's after perse rate is extremely small.
At a gain of 10 to out of 7. The 2 guys are afterwards rate of only 5 percentages comparable to some of the best
Mc. Pmt: Unfortunately, we have to give this Cpm.
T back because of the because income needed it for some other purposes, and hence we could not, extend the lifetime tests for so to conclude, Lp. Pbd.
64 is a hygiene, and Cpm T.
With node degradation until £5.6 per centimeter square. and And so this accelerated aging is a promising complementary method to the normal the pioneering that time to see
work, because we can provide feedback in realistic time.
Scales. Then our future work is, we are actually presently, in testing
An Mtp. empty with higher after pulse rate.
So we think that it should have an over lifetime, so we can generate a correlation between the afterwards rate and the lifetime, and we are also collaborating with coal and Alexey in in future.
They have submitted an a spi proposal where we'll be testing the
The behavior of an Mtp. empty with modified photo capability.
Thank you. question I don't say that go ahead Oh, yeah, .
Interesting token, but I'm not sure that I was able to rasp everything so.
But the simple question. So if one do, I get it right that from the lifetime perspective, if one is willing to work with lower game the lower Dv.
On the top Mcp. only instead of doing this symmetrically on both of them.
Yes, that's one of the things that we think is coming out from the city.
Yes, you can probably makeup for the game. So that is, operate the top and Cp at lower game and makeup for that game at the bottom.
Mct. It just cost it. That looks like you can actually extend the lifetime.
But we haven't made a study, but that is what it looks like here.
I think this would affect the timing resolution of being.
But yes, this would affect the timing distribution. So this there is also Another way of thinking about it is is that you probably can avoid this situation by doing the the reverse Right?
You can operate the chopping Cp. at higher gain, where you are not worried about the the lifetime.
But you're more worried about the saturation behavior for example, for high rate experience.
We probably can operate it in the other way around. do not saturate your bottom. M Cp.
So you can operate the top and Cp at higher gain and bottom, and Cp.
At the lower game. Okay, So there's a error in the agenda side.
So we fixed it so every every talk can be behind. That will be like a 10 min.
A shift of earlier, so take care of the
Look at the agenda so that you can know where the time is.
Your talk, if no more customers go to the second room.
So, Shan, I stop chatting. Yes, go ahead stop their serving, and then
I did. I mean next one go ahead. Okay, good afternoon or good night.
So this is the Chancellor from Myennifer Bologna, and here we are showing some latest results with the with the Appd.
For the application of the Lc. vehicle. Great
So this is not flying off of the topics. First one.
First of all, let me show about results about the first the stack a Ppd that was tested, that certain Sps.
If you were a couple of months ago, and then also some first results with the I? those proton your radiation at the same hero.
And then some final results for the aging tests of Ncps incoming cities with the Uv light in a vacuum chamber.
So. this is just a reminder. i'm not going to the details.
So you can refer to the first Ld workshop in March.
Remember what this is all about. So what what we want to do is to insert a elliptically like detector within 2 h of an electromagnetic carimeter with theim of measuring the the rival time
of the electromagnetic showers. So, according to our simulations, we need to reach the timing resolution of the order of 20 picoseconds, and the idea is is is to use a a an Mcp.
Stock. So really in L. Ppd. without the protocol.
So basically using the charge, I mean the the the same thing, the charging component of data to the shower by direct your unization within Dmcp.
Way first, so no photocopter, and then exploit this to measure the timing with excel resolution.
But this is a picture of I mean, you see a couple of pictures from the last test beam at the Sps.
So this is the first. This stock produced by income uses 3 mcps instead of usual 2.
This came with 10 micron, both sides, and so the idea is that the presence of the additional Mcp.
Should give us more more flexibility, managing irid conditions.
And also I Again we lower handages. When the Pc.
Started off. So when there is no not for to cap so this Lapd came with an aluminum photocatable, with which we had an extremely low quantum efficiency, so we can couldn't make a door of
characteristic with lots of policies before the the test bin. And then the test beam, as I said, was conducted in Jonah and we use the electron and electron beam ranging from 20 to 100 Gm Okay.
So this is a
A sketch of that of of the experiments of setup? So we have the beam. Then we have a pair of Shit centers users for triggering the pair of Ncp committees for reference
timing 3 delay work chambers which were used to track the the electrons, and then, finally the the device under study, which, right on the test we g in.
Was a a A for the type of it over an electromagnetic limiter, splitting 2 Alps with the in Lll Ppd.
Inserted in the in the in the meeting. so the parties were recorded with the Dr.
For digitizer, and all of the studies are based on on, you know, data taken in this way.
So this is just a detail around the the colorimeter, the the the the calimeter module area, which is a likely red.
So in this case this calimeter module at the sides of about 4.5 cm, so was covering roughly 2 by 2 pixels of this L Ppd.
Which can with the with pixels of a pitch of one inch.
Okay, that there is another detailing that the module is tilted With respect to the B.
Max. This is because of the spacer geometry which has a longitudinal city, letting crystals.
And so, if if particles change normally to the surface, there are no uniformities depending on whether you are eating on the absorber or on the on the on the on the crystals, so for these reasons the
demodulates are tilted by a little bit such that the better uniformity is is achieved.
So what we did then we may discount in position of the being.
So we move with the device in order to to illuminate different regions of the interesting area of the chlorimeter module, and then of also on the corresponding pixels of the lvp So This is
just a least of the voltage settings that are being used for this test beam.
So in this case we have Pre Emcp: So we have to provide voltages to M.
Cps and to the gaps in between. But then,
You see, we had 2 M. cps at 850 balls one the bottom one was kept.
The 400 bucks, just because I mean in this first model there was a first of all, the type of Lvpd with 3 Mcps the the the bottom. is.
It showed some voltage stability. And and so we we good wire voltages.
So this is the corrected in a prototype is that we'll see later. and then I mean we we had to put an inverse bias of them bolts between the protocol and the entry of the top
Mcp. just 20 bit electrons to migrate from the Protocol to the multiplication stage, although, as I said, in case the quantum mechanism was extremely low.
Anyway. so I think references as we said we use 2 Cpm. this. now I don't go through the detail.
What what is relevant is that the combinant resolution of this reference, Pmt.
Is, is is about 1,415 s. So this is using as a reference timing for the timing measurements.
Later. Then the other thing we we had to align.
With the beam, and this was used by this was made by checking the how.
The amplitude change at this apartment of the position of the electrons, and then the the place that you see here with the cross in X and Y.
These amplitudes of the value speak. So they cross in the in the middle of the pixel, so we were able to identify the the the the of the pixel. and so we were sure that we are writing the the right way.
We are well lined, but this is a a plot of a typical a Ppd signal.
This was for particular run at one of the Gd.
With the being directed towards the center of G 4. When I say it directed towards you that to understand the the the beam at the Sps is not point like, so you have quite anonymous spread.
So you direct the access of the beam toward the G 4.
But you have electrons, or also well around the that point.
So the right time that we observe in this case is about one on a second with the food with that maximum about 1.7.
Okay, So what problem that? We have to solve this? how to combine measurements of body pixels?
So if you want to obtain an optimum timing measurement, you know, in general, the the electron can eat whatever point of the Ecol, and that's all the lipid interface and really signals.
In multiple pixels. So somehow you have to find the way to combine the measurements of the event of the pixels, and and the far more in our case, the pixels are really large.
So you know, a combination of several measurements by different pixels, and can be important to achieve good uniformity across the surface, independent of how the the wave of charge develops in the internal environment.
So in principle, one could try to model out the charge develops.
And now this induces a a signal onto the pixels.
But this is very complicated the moment to do without the prophecy simulation.
So what we tried for now is is to to go for a multivariate approach, which is what we we choose.
There a regression tree based on on grading boasts don't go to the details now to lose time, but I mean the idea is to combine the information containing all the signals of the 4 pixels and the
coordinates, measured by the delay work. chambers in order to obtain an average timeest one has to be in this kind of a With this kind of code one needs to be a way that that this this can be
prompt over training. But, it can be easily checked at the whether there is any any kind of over 3.
Okay, So the the application so in our case is to to train a regression 3 on the training sample, the We feed the the regression tree with several input variables, so which are the time stamps of the signals of the 4
P. excel their amplitude the rice times the full. We didn't have maximum, and the coordinates of the delayware chambers, and then the target variable is the reference time of the M
Cpm. T's in the following year we are presenting a preliminary study all day for the runs at 20, and the one on the Gv.
Just because we we and finish everything. And now the detail is that all the time stamps in the following are calculated by 2 point per population at 50% custom track.
So this is an example of what you get if you direct the beam toward the center one Pixel G 4.
In this case, you see, on the left hand side is the plot of the role time of the pixel, minus the the reference time.
You see, the distribution is a little bit asymmetrical, with with 32 picoseconds, more or less in Sigma.
They are symmetries, mostly due to being a special distribution.
So we are not always eating the same place in the in the in the pixel there, and you see the action of the Gp.
Which is using information also of the other pixels, where you have part of the signal, which is, which is also leaking.
You see that the bid is able to symmetrize the distribution of the timing resolution, and also you don't have any longer.
I mean the did this long, annoying tail. you see something little bit, but not very much.
And also what you see from here from this plot is that the training sample which is in black, and the test sample which are in blue do not show differences which is assigned that there is nothing over training that so once you subtract
then the resolution of the reference andcps we get in this case a a resolution from the Gbp. Dt.
Up to, of about 20 people seconds. This is another example, when, where we directly be towards the crossing of the port pixels.
So you have this at the 4 pixels, and what you measure in the 4 pixels.
And you see, I mean this way: the distributions with very long deals, and also quite significant.
Standard degradations. And then again, when you combine everything, you get symmetrized distribution with with a much lower standard standard deviation.
And again, Once you subtract the reference time, we get something around.
24 people. seconds. So then I mean, if you train all of the runs together, depending on the position, and then you test everything together. This is what we get.
So you see, in the case of the 20 Gv. there is a little bit of training. So you see the the training sample and the test samples do not give the same distribution exactly.
This is mostly due to the lower statistics of the of in this run.
And to the large be be spread of the sps at 20 Gdp.
It's it's not the problem in itself but what what needs you?
An idea is that in any case we can get more or less, the same solution.
Improve cases of 20 Gb. and 100 Gv. electrons, and roughly again, in the both part of 2,526 picoseconds.
When you subtract, then you have to subtract from from this quadrant would be the reference time, which is about 15.
So, although pixels are really large in our case it's, it looks like the combination of the information from the vice-pix. it allows for a good timing resolution to be achieved.
This work is still preliminary. We think that we still quite some room for partner improvement.
So let's Let's come to the second part of the talk which is on the irrigation test. it's rearranged.
Iraq is the facilitate setting which provides a beam of 24 Gb.
From the proton. the same proton synchronous, and problems are organizing these peels about 5 time in that in 10 to the 11 protons per spill, and the spill is is lasting about 400 ms with the one
spill every 12 s on average. And you see that these are the beam profiles in in x and y of of of the beam spot.
So the the the with the maximum is is order of 1 cm. and if you make the calculations I mean, you can expect.
And this is actually what we got about 10 to the 16 protons to be integrated in one square centimeter.
During about one week Old Run that that was made the end of June beginning of July, right after the Sps test beam.
And okay, 10 to the 16 protons, if you want the corresponding
Measuring in one immediate, Newton? Equivalence!
This is about one out. so 5 in 10 to the minus 15. Okay.
So we had to pack in the the lapd into light material.
I mean no, any materials were low don't be men surroundings.
So everything was meeting plastic and tapes, you know that to make it like tight and
During the the Iranian the Appd was kept under a voltage, so there were 900 volts for Mcp.
And 200 volts in the gaps We are actually we decide to inhibit the the protocol during the radiation, and it didn't make too much. it although we meet we made it like, tight but it was not really needed
at the point, but afterwards after the radiation, we inserted the blue led in in front of the area in order to send light to the square of one or square centimeter center at one at * *, * pbx which was created actually so
the lead was powered by short paths from from away from generator in order to producing or photograph.
So we'll see the results later. and this is just a couple of pictures of the L.
Ppd, mounted on a motorized table just in front of the Bm.
Exit. And then this is a picture. When we were aligning with the with the lasers, the Dd.
Pixel on on the beam spot. Okay? So Then later, the was moved to a storage area to pull down, and then we measured the the dark rate and gain over the whole summer.
So you see here the little a Ppd E. then beyond some led shielding, and then all of the equipment needed to be your Ddd.
The performances were full, just evolved from You see here in the past generator, See for the position the mini right here for for the Redout board and the and the the If I were supply So here is a plot of
the accounts after the radiations. So you see here the plot is is the Amplitude plot, and then this is the magnification of this plot around the very low amplitudes.
So you see Mtdp. covet events here.
And then if you put the character around 4 meals, then you can get 3 double games, events, and measure how many the accounts you have both.
This is for millivolts Also, by the way, the standards, the cap that is applied by income when they are measuring back rates in the factory before delivering the devices.
So this is the result. So this is the number of days passing after the radiation.
So from the the very first moment after the radiation, we had the dark rate of about one kilohertz per square centimeter, which then drop down quickly to about 500 in a couple of days, and then started to drop down
more slowly, and it's at the end of the of the measurement campaign.
After 2 months and half we were at about 300 ads per square centimeter.
So before the radiation it was 10 min per centimeter.
So that is actually an effect which is an reachable although such a level of that rate for us is by far not problematic.
And and then we also measured the gain by means of sequence, symbol photoletters provided by an ad.
So this is what it was. the amplitude distribution with the average of about 30 millivolts, and the average gain of about 16 and 10 to the 6 before the aviation the In this case we had to use some settings.
Which were, I mean the you see, the voltage apply on the program was quite low.
The reason was that this model, which was devoted to a destructive test, was not extremely performance in.
In. in in particular, it was not very stable. if you, if you raise it that too much.
The devoted just, for to cut it, so we had to keep it low.
By the way, this was not a big problem in itself. it's not the limitation for the purpose of studying effectively.
It will be radiation over time. So what we see we have seen. This is the amplitude as a function of time, and we see that right after the radiation from the 32 millivolts before radiation, it
degraded very slightly, maybe 29 or so, and then there.
There is some changes over time, but we attribute these to the fact that the territory in the errands triggeria were not really under control, and there was the sum of the compatible was changing quite
drastically during the summer. So this is our best best guest but there's more variation.
But basically the what you see from here is that they games didn't change in a significant way.
After the interview. Then with the 16 problems. Okay, so these are just the conclusions.
I don't want to to to read them I mean just we have to make more, thanks thanks to the 7 year old staff, which we children us a lot.
Not that we didn't measure the the quantity efficiency losses.
This would not very significance for this kind of test, and not even relevant for our proposals.
Okay, Finally: lifetime testing vacuum chamber.
This is something that we already showed. with more details in the match workshop.
So this is just a reminder. What we do is we put the stack of a M.
Cps inside the vacuum chamber which has a new part on top, and then we please,
Mercury lamp and talk to to illuminate the Dmcp.
The top and Cp. the V light leads to a non-zero quantum efficiency. so extract electrons from the Dmcp.
Surface, and these electrons have them multiplied. but the Mcp.
Stack, and the charge is collected that's by mentally kind of the bn, so I mean a poor man vacuum.
Cubed, made in a in a vacuum chamber, and then
This way we can reach barrier currents actually. so we we can.
We can accumulate lock last charge, you know, in a reasonable small time.
So this was a test with the share of stack of 2 round them, cps of 33 in the Yaman area each. The The active area was 25 in the end once the electrons and these operators
were So this is just a picture of the simple setup. If there is a vacuum chamber, then multimeters to redoubt and our supply.
And then on top you can see this act. In In it is inserted the email query lamp, and then inside the vacuum chamber there is, maybe Themcp stock.
And these are the results. So what you see here is the
Mcp. gain of the a single one. So one Mcp.
The gain of one single Mcp. the bottom it's. if you on the stack, so what we actually measured, we measure the the the gain of the bottom and cpu only.
Okay, and then this is a function of the integrated charge.
So you see, there is some structure I mean something going on.
And you see that it starts degrading, and at some point I mean, after after 50, 50 more or less, 50 or something 70 70 coulomb per space. entity to start to go down what you see here in this discrete jumps is that is because at the in this point we
decided Mcps addressed for one week, so there was no light anymore.
When we restarted. we have seen we, We observed that the gain increases the significantly; but then, after about 2030 in the school on sorry 2,034 on square centimeters they the the gain went back
to the previous trend. basically, and we repeated this also at the end of of a of the campaign, and we made also not the measurement part.
After one week, we know like, and we also saw here that was temporarily increase of
Of the game. So not that the zoom cities were not preconditioning in any way before being inserted into large chamber.
So, for example, we didn't apply any pre meeting to remove and receive a waterfield more other impurities They would just use that as they were after the factory, and that after the be delivered, However, what you conclude, from here, is that
you have more or less a factor, 7 in a loss like 300.
With respect to the maximum, at about 50 which can be recovered.
Of course, if you can raise, if you can, low raising the the the voltage bias by roughly 100 101 of the boats increasing budget by us, you basically recover the maximum market.
Okay, Okay, So this is the conclusion we have show. We have shown the premier results for the first Z-stack jerential to a Ppd, which are, you know, for jing?
We expect some improvements with well respect for what was shown today there's a new.
This pack, who was just delivering the right to Bolonia this week, and we'd be tested the Gps commencing next weekend we have completed the irrigation campaign with 24 gv
protons at era discern with we reach a 10 to the 16 protons in one square centimeters, and there is a some increase in that creates, I mean, not for zoom for us and basically not in and finally we had
completed the Dvd. pane on gauge, you know, gimsy pays, and we regions 300 columns was basically.
So we also want to thank the support of of stuff which is always greatly appreciated.
I thank you for the talk, and I see Amazon.
Then go ahead of your question. I don't know very interesting top thinking I had plenty of new results.
Of course. So I had a question 2 independent questions about the first part of so first one about Cluster timing question, because I think it's similar to what we will face as soon all later, with single photon clusters and
and also with the time of life. application was maybe thinking so You're using this boot issue in previous So I was now thinking that you know the position of your threat of the shower, because you know the trajectory of the primary
particle right? Yes, so in some sense, all of the delays.
If you believe that the comparison, the combination of all of the timings in all the heat cells, contributes to the measurement, so the relative delays are pretty much known from the simulation. and why well, so so the delay of what you
mean. so the delay of a core cell, so to speak.
So the one which was hit by the particle where the was the core of the shower and the the next papers.
Okay, yes, So in this sense I was thinking that one, instead of using moral networks, one can use simultaneous fit of meeting edges of all these cells with fixed in the delays and a single free parameter This
is I mean, I think this is something that works if your pixels are small enough as small enough, I mean, because in this case, with an extended pixel, it matters in which place of the pixel you're
distributing your signal. The signal is not invariant.
With respect to where you are eating the pixel.
If the pixel is more than nothing. But impact in particular is is smaller than the the distribution of the shower.
The electromagnetic shower. Then probably all of this can simplify, as you, as you say, by simply taking the averages of the values with with proper offsets.
I mean the averages of the values pixels in this case with pixels which are so large.
You see all you can see. Look at this distribution here.
No, this is the pixel. How do you make a combined measurement of this pixel in this other?
And also the is also the little problem that these 2 measurements are correlated.
They are not independent. so it's it's it's possible to do what you mean. I mean you know it's it's just making a correct statistical model of what is going on.
It's not so easy to believe at least with pixels of these sites, maybe with smallest pixels could be would be much more viable.
Yes, okay. but but I was not suggesting to fit all Pixels independent, because I was suggesting to feed everything at once, because then this small ones can actually contribute.
But how can you compete everything at once but 1? 7 years, I would say, my inspector, with leading pages.
I know what is the relative delay it's a trivial memory to improvement.
So you mean you sum all of the spectrums with with not some, because you.
Then you'll lose the the village so you are you are fitting everything at once.
But introduce fixed delays based on the amount of the practice positionable.
Okay, Maybe I I I see what you mean yeah Well, that's something that we can.
We can also try We have the distribution in this case, you know. this depends very much on also on the spread of the beam and the beam.
It was not symmetric at the it paid long tail in one side and not from the other.
I mean the easily little bit complicated that believe you. But you know I understand. But okay.
But I was talking that, you know, now to tell you the truth is not is not we didn't check yet with the necessary accuracy.
Whether it is very important to know the position of the beam in our case.
Since we have a calorimeter. The collaborator tells us what was the the show, with the precision of about 1 min, or even less.
However, you know also the L. Ppd. in itself has the possibility to.
If you look at the value pixels you you can.
You can somehow try to infer what you which was the position. So the Lpd.
As already input position and information, and and maybe the importance of of feeding the Dbd.
With an external measurement is not so large this is something that we have to better understand.
So that's what I found in mind so that you know the cluster.
So you can calculate X Y. and then you know the position.
I'm trying to do it? Yeah, so what what level of game are you reaching?
So is so in this case. So in this case we were using the we were using one of the threemcps with very low.
But by telling me that if you could raise it up to 50 you would get the game of 10 to the what, hey?
Well, so I unfortunately, we couldn't measure it we do with the laser passes because we didn't have. I mean this model didn't this prototype did, an ever working.
Very okay, So measuring the game in development wasn't possible after at least this with the next one which is now, we check the working for the
So in this case we Didn't measure on the beam, and then see what happens.
But the idea in principle can be that you were spreading the the charity over larger number of cores, and they said, curate individually at the fire.
Yes, yeah. I mean that. Yes, certainly the the the spot on the bottom and Cp. would would be much larger than what much, and would be large now?
Not necessarily dramatically. Matcha we'd be learned to with respect to that which is, which is also something that can be, can be, however, simulate them.
So we are also developing a low level simulation links in that in a proper way.
Okay, there you have a question. Yes, very quick curiosity. actually.
So in in your game plots. I think it was 26, probably.
I was curious. If this voltage distribution yes, yes, this Should we expect more.
Polia. This left top more pop. What do you mean? It should be more more call yeah than it is.
You mean? Okay, So So you you you don't see the goals going up at the low count, or what do you mean to meet? No, It doesn't go up, just because here, we are we are selecting all the events, which are in the in the time
So we are using timing to remove events which are out of.
So basically, we we kept all of the events which are out of time.
And so you are. You are humaneic only with the we events which are worth time.
I mean. So you don't see the usual right up of of yeah on Cdm.
Tv that we did to the okay, so I didn't see any more questions.
Okay, let's just talk with you and then? new scientific yes.
Can you hear me? Okay, let me just share. Okay.
Hopefully, you can see my screen Yeah, everything's good Okay, Thanks.
Okay, thank you for. for the invitation to talk to this very interesting workshop.
I will. I will talk mostly on the concentrate on the electronic side on the read outside of the of the lay Ppd and try to to share our our our experience.
But also our our ideas, and I'll possibly interface some of our asics for a la ppd readout first a couple of words about now scientific, in case for people might never have heard of us we are we are a
small company that is, a specializes in in designing asics a real-outing, integrated circuit which are away from digitizer. with the main goal of precise time of light in estimation, we have a lot of
different offerings. We also try to move those into a an integration phase to read out mostly mostly sensors, which are used in a Htp and Np. experiments.
Astropartical physics. And so this is where our main applications are.
But we also are looking for other application, like plasma, fusion, diagnostic, and pit imaging the
The companies is a fast-growing startup in on a Lulu Y. and we have a kind of a vertical technical expertise from the Ic design hardware board design for more design. software design.
And also scientific expertise that allows us to interface better with the with the needs of the Hp and Np-word.
This is just a a a small table of the of a various chips that we have designed.
I will not dwell too much on it, but I will.
In this talk I will concentrate on 2 of these.
The arbark and the Udc. because they they are targeting the type of resolution.
We are really interested in for these top of applications. So
Before actually describing the behavior of this of the chips, and and the way their specs could could be acceptable for the for the Lapd application.
So I just want to to describe a little bit the one of the the point of view about the digitizing architecture.
We already had a little bit of the of discussion about this earlier today via
The the the typical way of handling timing in in modern experiments is use a much simpler architecture, which is a a discriminator based approach with the Tdc's time over
threshold possible constant fraction, discrimination.
The advantage of having a full waveform is that we could potentially get a better estimation of overall charge, which is important in L. A. Pdk is to do a to get to sub pixel spatial resolution the
user full waveform. information is potentially i'll i'll show with a very, very toy monte carlo.
In a minute. What I mean by that give better better results in terms of timing, extraction, robustness to overall wander and gain variation.
Better pile up management, potentially comparative independence with respect to aging.
But this is A, as we know, is probably not a big issue for Lappd.
On the other hand, the the big drawback of this mechanism methodology is that the additional design complexity is high.
Digitizers are much bigger, much power, hungry component than a simple discriminator.
And so also the digital processing require from to go from the way from to the to timing, or to the or to the charge.
But one advantages that modern technologies can handle the especially the digital requirement pretty pretty gracefully, and I will try to show in in the next slide that at least with the with the type of devices we are we are
designing this we we could heat those targets So here's a a kind of a strawman model of what some of the the requirements for potential La Ppd writeouts which are interested which are interested to this to
this community i'm looking, for example, of a p other small relatively small pixel side of 3.2
This corresponds to a one channel per 10 square, which is tough to stop to put so many the tires in that space, but is in the right order of magnitude with the with the devices that we have we might need to have
a gain stage. So this is again a very strong end to estimate of. for 10 to the 6 to 10 to 7 gains something like 4 to 40 millivolts to peak.
So we probably would like to have something again between 5 and 10, and preserve.
With this gain at least the rising time of one nanosecond, which actually brings at least the probably more than that.
But at least something like 350 Megahertz bandwidth.
We would like to get closer to the one giggers, but this might be a little bit iffy.
So the the point here is that it might be possible to integrate this type of gain in 130 nanometer technology that those chips are made of, and I will just the detail a little bit less later in terms of
power an estimate with the with the the the Dirk example, the requiring 72 Hr.
Pds. I think that Alex had this presentation that had this estimate with around 72,000 channels.
If we assume that this is the total system, power to kill what that being brings down to 30 mill, what for channel, which is in the ballpark of a of our existing chips in terms of timing resolution?
And how that is related to the sampling rate for our for our system.
The I'm doing here and estimate that if we want to do, and we will. We probably want to go better than this, but minimally, a 50 pico second timing.
We need a factor of 2 Better let's say to a to to make sure that the electronic contribution is less.
So we want to eat £25. And one of the advantages of the of the waveform sampling is that the you can actually use multiple samples to estimate the position here.
I have a very, very simplified Monte Carlo, where I where I basically try to. to estimate what is the timing?
Assuming a fairly large noise, Rms. on the individual sample 5 millivolts for a 100 millivolts.
Amplitude, the on the on the pulse and using 4 4 points.
Sam pulled and doing basically just the linearly squares on these 4 points.
And even with this fairly fairly relaxed signal to noise ratio, we could get to 25 poseconds, using, as you see here, 5 years sample per second timing, and we all know that most of the measurements that people are
presented today have been using the the Drs. 4, and the users 5 5 giga sample per second, so you can even reach much better results, as as our chip.
Can. So this said, I just want to present very quickly the what There's the general architecture where chips our chips are are basically doing sampling.
Have a sampling cells, a series of sampling cells, 128 in in all the chips.
We're discussing today that periodically, save that information still in on an analog format into a much larger number of storage cells, 4,096 for Udc.
And 30 twok and sixteenk for our bug before, and then, when a trigger arrives, someone is interested in the port in all, or a portion of this data that gets converted using Wilkinson type
analogy, the either stored locally in a static run or export it with the start to the external work.
The the 2 chips that i'm talking about today at this specification.
There are the use, A very similar core. So the annual performance is expected to be quite, quite close, and we're actually testing both.
And this seems to seems to be correct. One is tensor 16 channels, but as a smaller, smaller, smaller memory, analog memory of 4,096.
The other one arbor there actually 2 version the v 3 that I'm talking about and tested, and the V 4 with it as just being a fabricated. that is, an eight-channel device both of them can
operate a tang giga sample per second. The analog bandwidth Udc is between one and 2 is actually closer to one and the standard evaluation we expected it to be a bit higher the for The
Arb V. 3 is 1.3, and for the arbug before is expected to be over.
To giggards, because we added an input buffer for that.
The other important consideration here. the dice size year is they're pretty similar.
They're all around 2528 to 29 square the the Uvc.
Can fit in a relatively small 9 by 9 package with the 64 inputs.
The Our work is now currently housing in a larger package, but a smaller package is also possible.
So. I don't really want to dwell on this particular slide.
But the idea of the theory of operation of Udc is important, because it contrasts with what the arbor does.
The the Udc. has been designed, not with this application in my, but for single shot, or slow or 8 experiments.
So the way that youvc works is that we that is continuously sampled and stored in round robin fashion in in 32 windows of 64 samples, and then, after reception of an acquire which is
basically a trigger. Everything gets digitized stored internal in the static ram, and we're wait for the for an external request for all the data to be shifted out.
So effectively. it's a slave device never in chase no operation, and it has a fairly long fairly long time to to export all the data because of the way that that was the the type of application that are
that was designed for so here's a is a Is it just a digital simulation of the of the type of rates that you expect It's as you see It's very slow we're talking about
millisecond range between one event and the next. But keep in mind that this is for digitizing and and transmitting the entire 4,090.
6 multiply by 12 by 16 channel channel information. If we we could potentially modify this, to to have a to have just to observe it, much smaller version.
So, for example, in the you know, the best case where we could look at the single window and a single channel we could be we could read out with as little as 13 microseconds.
This is just a general view of the floor plan and size.
You see that the their 8 channel per size and the large portion of the of the device is actually taking by this local static ram, which are needed for this application, but they can be either eliminated or signal reduced for the the rates
rate centric applications which are more interested for lappd use.
Just a couple of dot example here. we need to do a a voltage calibration exactly as that needs to be done, for example, by the Dr.
S. 4 after voltage calibration. we get to a little bit over one count one count a Dc.
Er. This is an example of a waveform. compared to it to a oscilloscopes capture of a fairly fast apple from a photo diode like you see it's smaller than one
nanosecond the width and there's also interchannel timing measurements that show that we can get to the with an Rms.
Of of the order of 10 of 10 picoseconds, 1010, 15, picoseconds.
So in summary, this chip has 2 big advantages, is relatively dense to 16 channel, 9 by 9 package for a footprint, which is a pretty small per pixel.
Now this does not take into account supporting electronics and external amplifiers.
If we need regulators, clock tree distribution riding constraints, and so on.
But at least is going into the right direction. It gives good timing performance expected in temperature.
Second range based on the experience with the arbor which has the same structure, the same basic channel, mother at power consumption in the 30, 35 millivot per channel, simple serial interfacing in the present, the own chip digital
storage might be useful for certain applications. The disadvantages, as mentioned at the low rate which can be which can be corrected fairly easily, and especially the dead time.
So once we do in the digitization, we cannot do sampling. And this this is probably the the major disadvantage of this particular type of architecture, and also it does a fairly complex clocking scheme.
The Arb V 3, which is the other type of chip, is a as a different philosophy.
This the V 3 has only 4 channels, but as a much more complicated the digital control that allows us to to digitize only the portion of the particular interval which is centered by triggers.
The trigger can be locally generated. So we have an in a discriminator that generates a trigger.
We have a roy mode. the Roy mode.
The region of interest mode that basically uses the internal discriminators to indicate the specific sub region in the interval of interest where we, where we really want to digitize.
So reducing further, doing more 0 suppression on the data.
And finally, it has a banking system that permits, permits simultaneous sampling and and digitization.
So in terms of theory of operation compared to the Udc.
This is designed for more more design, for high rate expectations in independent streaming mode.
So the device once is configured, works as a as a master device, and data is, is is sent out as soon as the the The final digitization is a A A is completed, and because of the banking system the acquisition
and discrimination can can occur at the same time.
Just a word of the next generation version of the ship which is already being fabricated.
This is actually a picture that we took yesterday for the first time, that we just received this before.
And the main difference here is this is an 8 channel device, and it has also an input buffer that operates is actually designed for around 4 gigahertz.
We expect to operate at least over 2 gigahertz, and that increases the bandwidth, reduces some some internal effects that potentially could be a base for a design for a for a for an in in chip
amplifier, and the advantages and disadvantages of the arbark are kind of a complementary to the to the Udc.
So it has the self-triggering, streaming capability potentially can cope to a high rate.
But, as we estimate, something like 150 kilohertz per single channel, events per ship, and all full 8 channels read out at the R. round 100 kilohertz that time free operation and there's
also pls call clocking scheme that reduces the need for for multiple reference clocks the disadvantage is this higher power consumption for the V.
3. we We are measuring 30 millilit per channel, and a larger footprint 2 times the Udc.
For the right 4, so ideally for the lapd, we would like to put the together.
The advantage of these 2. So the the density and the power consumption, or even less from from Udc and from our bark, the self triggering, streaming high rate and potential input amplification capability and we
believe that this kind of meeting is possible, mostly because the some of the the issues are related to having a very large, very long analog buffer, which is might not be needed in most of the lapd applications.
So one last consideration about the the the boards.
The Board design. for to use this ship we do believe the border level integration is essential to fully harness the channel density.
The timing to make sure that handles timing, distribution, power, distribution system, level integration, dialer concentration.
Properly. we have a few experiences of integrating with those chips that I will quickly present.
Hyper was a project which gave rise to the board shown on the on the right.
Here that was meant to read a full, genuine lapd tile, and as actually fabricated.
And we got good results. with the 20 pico second timing from from one end to the other end to the strip for for good positioning, Expositioning determination on the on the Lapd This other product to
the Dsa. c. 10 a plus is actually an 8 channel device, a kind of a smaller version of the hyper.
If you will, because that as an input amplification of 20 Db.
And and 2 and 2 R. V. 3, which means 8 channels.
That that fits into a smaller box, 6 by 4 by one, and finally, with the Udc.
We have a 96 channel device that fits in a smaller 12 by 4, by one box and it can be a can be interfaced externally, or the we we're actually developing all the all the
setup for firmware and also software the the software that we we have can actually offer and easy to use interface for the first time user.
And also to to explore some capabilities. So we we are envisioning some of these boards as as prototyping boards to verify whether the use of these of these devices is convenient for the for the
applications that that that the user is interested in. So in conclusion, the we do believe that the way from digitizing integrated circuit can be a robust and flexible solution for read out of lapd base detectors that get all the way down to
like 10 picoseconds of timing resolution.
The current version of digitizer already cover most of the strong and lapd.
If you accept this kind of hybridization concept that I mentioned The small variations should be able should be done with relatively moderate half, for that is, we do not really need a new cheap architecture development to
to really meet this goals. the The optimized Board integration will be essential for leveraging the capabilities, and, as mentioned, it would be great to to be able to interface with people or using Lappd
and and might be, might be using this devices in order to in order to test both the L. A. Ppd.
And then especially verify validate that the the devices are
Are a good viable alternative for this type of readout And as a last note, I just want to know to to mention that the the developments all started from H. Ap.
And P. but we do believe that they can also benefit directly adjacent.
Feel like time of life. et thanks for thanks for your attention and I'm.
Not ready for answer, Not sure if I took too much of mine all the time.
Oh, that's fine. thank you, luca and Alexander.
Go ahead. Yeah. Thank you, Lucas. And this is very comprehensive program, of course, is that they probably have a dozen of questions.
He would need to go slide by slide or a comprehensive discussion.
If you certainly don't have this time. Now so the main question for me is what is actually path forward all this you know, to make it into a one of, or maybe 2.
Particular the difference at the Ic. So what what is Yeah, No.
Sorry. So this is probably the only question which I have time to ask you and let me ask the second question.
So, for example, you mentioned evaluation boards and we are, We are willing, since quite some time, to
So if you show this slide 22, I think it was 20.
3 might be so the 22 was the hyper, This was actually for the for the Gen.
One lapd, so it might be not as relevant as 23 is just a small Is this small to a 4 to 8 channel device?
This would be something which you know would just start with and get familiar with with all these.
And we somehow are not getting there. So what is the path forward now?
So should there be some initiative from the Eic project.
If we think about the ic specifically or yeah I I think that I don't know if kevin is online and might be might be answering to that I am online,
I would have to say, Alexander, that all of your other questions that are un asked right now.
Matter a lot in that context. we can certainly you know you've seen What Luca has here, and we have, you know, internally discussed eic and other needs quite a bit but the the devil is in the details. here.
This is, you know, I think it's everybody has shown that the
The technical challenges to you know ringing the best performance out of the Lapds require more or less a comprehensive approach, you know, to each element of this kind of vertical stack that's required to get you know
that performance out. i I can't really answer your question other than that i'm willing to work with you to frame what would be an appropriate set of requirements and a path forward based on those in
the eic context, and that's you know obviously a much longer discussion but they can tell you so what worries me.
And this is probably my what common? So Thomas is online.
So what always means is that I all these preliminary conversations, So somehow I don't see any single digitizer.
R. and D request for proposal, which was accepted in *, *.
So this basic development, if I understand correctly, and somehow it looks like this integration of this type of dilemma electronics in 2 years he just got stalled at some point.
So am I right? or we are moving in the right direction.
Oh, yeah, I cannot speak for the eic. and the way that the project is is managing the resources and schedule, You know that is their job.
We can try and match that. But we we you know we're obviously following that, we can't drive that path.
We are receptive. we have know engaged with the Rd.
109 with the with the Hp. Dirk folks, El Gabs folks and other people.
But we have not found that there is a a common project.
Denominator other than Erd, 109.
And that subsumes you know basically all of the dac electronics under it. and it's it's simply up to the project.
I can't answer it. I think we should take this offline but it sounds to me that I mean the presentation like this, with all the parties present in one room should just take place sometime soon.
So otherwise we are not. We are kind of I would agree with that.
We, we can certainly do that. Okay, Okay, Thank you. Okay, Matthew, I you have a hand on.
You still have a question while you are so actually my question was more or less answered by in the discussion around Alexander's question.
So in the interest of time I I can put the high level question down on It may have some more queries, but I can get in touch with
Kevin or Luca independently. So thank you.
Thank Good night. Okay, Thanks. here's bernard. Can I just ask a technical question, and this may open a kind of worm. So you can cut me short input and impedance to the chips because nothing actually forces us to
use 50 ohms, and, in fact, because the Mtp.
Is a constant charge source. It is actually much more advantageous to be driving into a higher impedance, to get more pulse, energy.
So it would require redesigning the front end to have a higher input impedance.
Well, the the the main question there is, is a combination, at least, in my opinion, is the the the potential effect of of what a high input is business will do to the to the pull shape right or to
the to the timing, because the the bandwidth is is going to go down.
If we if we consider the capacitance of the of the input so that there there's always a little bit of balancing act there.
That Well, I mean this is going to lead to far for this discussion.
But, guys, I would like to get into a discussion with you like privately about this.
Sure. Alright, I would have time to communicate. so. thank you.
A little time, and next to Speaker will be a new about the Ai.
When you go ahead. Yeah, Okay, So can you listen me. Yeah, you'll go ahead, and everything's a good look.
Yeah. I'm: So slides are in the presentation more
A slides are in the presentation. one no they are not Okay, now, that's good.
Yes, Thank you. Yeah. So my name is Daniel Manay.
Along with jfil. lamb we had a argon and what we are doing here last 10 to 12 years working on ald quotings, so it'll be stand for atomic layer deposition, method and we
make materials Ourmcp. and with the support of energy Physics office.
Of this success from Dewey as well as and it 22 funding.
We are still in this research, thanks to them. So, as you know, there are great talks from the morning this morning.
And now, till now I learn a lot of new things. but I feel that, the development of Ld.
Mcp need to be also projected, you know, as a main topic, because there are a lot of things we can do that in terms of material wise.
And as you are expert in this detectors testing and electronics, and so on.
I will not go in much detail about those area.
But focusing on how we make those Mcps small scale at larger scale and so on.
So not only the detector aspect that Mcp.
Use. But there are many other areas where M. Cp. can be used like nitrogen device.
Cameras, time of flight measurements, and so on. So what we do is we take on capillary glass array.
That is, supply by income. We were closely within income, and some other projects also.
So we take this capillary glass area, which is a borough silicon glass, and we put this different kind of coating to make this capillary glass or into Mcp.
Like function. So we put 2 quotings. One is register protein that generate electrostatic potential across the Channel.
And then second one is the msu porting whether It's mgo calcium fluoride, solar, polaroid alumina.
You can name it. We can make those quoting, depend upon the what gain and the material quality you are looking into.
So once we put these coatings we Oh, again test those Mcp.
Here at Argonne, and you know collaboration with the Berkeley and Income and Energy Physics group here at Argon.
And the main point here is, by doing this we are now not limited with the lead glass, and just as well as secondary electron emission property, because right now we have 2 different quoting.
And I can doing those different porting property according to the project requirement, and the process is low cost.
We can do in a batch processing it's a lead, free grass, and
There are very strong reasons that excellent stability I like that talk previously that they have tested even 300 kilone charge extraction.
So the Mcp. platform Very well here. But to get that M. Cp. we need a right register quoting the range that all these high energy physics, nuclear physics, experiment people worked at low. temperature and high temperature or room temperature application you need
that right resistance range, which is around 10 to 6, 10 to 9 home centimeter kind of resistivity.
So along this line. we have developed a couple of chemistries that we can tune the resistance, and 2 of them are very frequently used in the micro Channel Plate is the chemistry. One and chemistry 2 which is chemistry one
is the tungsten base, and chemistry, too, is a multi numbers, and the we can dial.
The registivity according to the range that we need. So once we dial the resistivity, we can apply that on the Ncp.
I already mentioned this couple of properties, but as you saw, the Mcp.
Gives very high gain because of different secondary electron emission coatings.
Then the late oxide hydrogen fire glass, and very low background count almost one fourth of the commercially available.
That's what I learned over the time excel had long long term stability.
And there are this is a presentation we saw from afternoon till now, that get a very tenx kind of because second time resolution.
So small scale development is much simple. One can say that.
Oh, I can get the Ld reactor and just buy it those.
But, boy, here is to develop this large area photo detector, and I think this is the one of the challenging topic that we have resolved so far and successfully.
We quote this: a large area 20 by 20 cm.
Mcp. and demonstrated many papers and presentation and also income.
He's now making commercial product which is available Nonetheless, these are meeting all the expectations that commercial Mcp.
Can have, and with that we can not only restrict ourselves to small form factor, but we can do curly and cpus circular squares, 10 baton centimeter, which is interest to electron iron collider projects and so on and many
other applications that we work with collaboration with the income Uc.
Berkeley annually. Ppd: So all this process take time, and I think, each chemistry making films, testing analysis, and all this taking time.
So last 3, 4 year we have developed this in C 2 Ldmcp.
Tool, which is very state of the art. In a way we can deposit material on Mcp.
In this particular chamber, when we introduce precursors and make these coatings, and then transfer into this testing chamber, which is decide. and in a real time, by layer value, basically we can measure the game, coming out of this
Mcp. and with this there is no airbreak, no carbon, carbon dioxide, or martial contamination, and so on.
So we can do much faster screening of any porting that we are interested with that.
With that we can figure out what is the minimum thickness is needed to get a maximum gain.
Or here is the is of Mg. Here is another case of alumina, where we can know what is the thickness is needed.
But, again, depend upon the secondary electron emission coefficient.
You can get different gain numbers, and this is we can done for many chemistries like here.
Kashm, fluoride, magnitude, fluoride, alumina, and we can get very high.
Gain around 10 to 6, 10 to 4 depend upon the chemistry.
This is for single M Cp. again. what i'm showing here is at the same time we have,
Since we are doing, depositing material on this complex for a subset, we are much more focused on understanding the uniformity of these coating, and we have prosper screen that we can quickly test whether coding is uniform
or patchy, or non-negot, so we can do all sort of those measurements in the test chamber.
Now, next topic here is we are also looking for now.
Instead of capillary glass that income is making. We are also seeing the approach of *d printed Mcp.
It is very early stage. it is not at fully developed. But this is another way of making micro channel plate and putting ald coating on that.
And a while ago we have presented this in real d conference, and you can see that this phosphor screen, which means it's the electrons are coming out of up even these 3 different Edmcp So This is
a another alternative approach that we are looking for. Second approach is, since we know now how we can make Mcps, And there are other talk from University Arlington.
I think that about the membrane, this iron feedback, and so on.
So in that regards we are also while I go looked at the how we can make this membranes that can go on top of Mccp's, and here are the cross section a Cmr later a Cm.
Image that you can see that discourse. 20, mac on force.
Cover with the and feedback layer of alumina.
So, technically, we can port, the large area silicon wafer and or proper substrate.
We can live this barrier and transfer on these.
So we have a bunch of ips on that most importantly, it's not only barrier porting for iron feedback, but we can even define the electron emission that is first time after photoelectron the
hitting on the Mcp. Inlet side, which is called first.
Try to effect. we can even may look into those areas.
This membrane can be neutral, sensitive membrane.
So then, as Mcp. can be used for neutral detection, so we are looking into those areas, too.
So, as I mentioned that we are working on Mcps for various application, and one of the thing is temperature, coefficient of resistance of the Zmcp.
So that high energy physics, community or nuclear physics nuclear engineering and physics community can use these detectors at different temperatures. and part of that.
We have developed variety of different proteins that can give you different kind of temperature.
Coefficient of resistance, and we can tune that by adjusting the different material.
Whether it is keeping aluminum oxide metrics, same and met metal component changing, and we can change the Tcr.
Or in other case you can fix the metal component.
And introduce different dialectics to make this register composite, quoting Accordingly, we can tune the Tca.
In a reality we should have tca as close to 0.
But this again depend upon the range. Mcps are 2 conducting.
Then there will be thermal runaway, and the short circuit would be there.
But again, we can dial that in that line. Recently, we have learned also in C 2 measurement where we can now dial the temperature coefficient of resistance major in a real time, and also at higher side and lower side and this is one of the
lowest Tcr: We got it minus point 0 0 7, which is a, to my knowledge.
At least this is one of the lowest. You are much better than the commercial available.
Andcp is promotanas and haama, so that we can get it with this quoting anyone, this low temperature application.
You can see that up to minus 100 degrees, C.
We have tested these Mcps and other side.
We have tested up to 200 degrees, C. and we can get a low
Tcr. and this Tcr. also can be dial according to the chemistry, the Picasso, the way we make it, and the temperature of the deposition.
So last, but least since we talk about a lot of about secondary electron emission coefficient, which is, use more gain.
But at the same time we are also depositing this register, quoting, and it takes time to understand the chemistry as well as optimize the resistance.
According to the Inc. that you can operate around 1,000 or 1,200 volts.
Recently, we doing in C 2 real time measurement of dialing resistance of the process.
It means we can do much faster, streaming up even resistive coating, and that way more productivity will be there and so on.
In that regards there are 2 data points I would like to share here.
Here is a 200 degree, c. process, which is we call K.
One, and then here is a 300 degrees, C process, which called again K.
1 point whatever number you can give but 2 different processes.
Use me exactly right resistance when that is needed for Ncp.
And in this one case at 200 degrees, c I need roughly 20 to 25 cycles of super cycles, whereas other case I just need 10 cycles.
It means i'm cutting my processing time by Hub, which is good for income, because they can produce more ncps in a faster way, which is the efficient way of producing the more So at this So what we are basically doing
again. This is a summary that, what we are doing at our gun, that we are understanding the A Dmcp.
Baseline process issues that occur during the production working closely with income and try to share their our knowledge.
And they are also, you know, in a synerg way. we are also developing processes, understanding new chemistry for next generation. In Cpes.
We had exploring Aly because, when you change this, because for molecules you get a different material.
So you get a different secondary electron emission properties.
We are also developing, developing, efficient hardware processing. Mcp.
Is pastor. we are also studying contamination.
Effect Mba defect like a open-end detector, that people are using in a space application or in a vacuum chamber.
And of course we are also making new ways of making electron amplifying structure.
And all this knowledge. technically, we are sharing with income.
And you know, symmetric way, and we are very helpful for their support as well as support from high energy physics.
So take our message from this particular presentation is, ald is a backbone for L. A.
Ppd. and I believe that, we need to focus also not only the current Lpd. chemistries and so on.
But we need to invest more in future mcps that can help.
Whether this in under magnetic field or past timing, or developing very high Guinness cps, and so on.
So with that i'd like to thanks our funding agency office of science, particularly high energy physics and national nuclear nuclear security agency and income, and thank you for your attention and giving me opportunity to present a D work that we are doing at our
than last. well year I will be happy to answer questions and take your suggestions.
Thank you and you, and at the vendor I thought you have a question.
I had a question. Go, go ahead. weeks ago I got email from Albert Leman, who who does a lot of work in Mcps was asking this.
He obtained from autonomous the tube a 2 Ld.
Codings, and he found that the Mcp. started to produce light around 10 to the 6 gain, and he was asking whether I have seen something like that, and my answer was, No, I was not clever enough to put another pmt to
look at That's the Mcp. however, I did test 2 failed tubes from Lz experiment and found that they failed, because at certain voltage they started to shine light.
So my question to you. Do you see a mechanism for this?
In this Ld process that's a very good question I think income
And we discussed that topic, and we will look different kind of coating and some passivating layers.
So we are working on that. but so far we have not seen that kind of stuff.
Unless until very high. and testing that all this energy physics works are doing.
Maybe they can answer but mutual point of view. We will definitely resolve this issue by adding different kind of material.
At least that I am interested in. So what I would say is that people who are testing these tubes should include another Pmt.
Into the the test setup to check for this so never find out. Yeah, definitely, I think, as you have seen this, and there may be chances that. But again, what we are doing at here what I understand for tanas And even
Hamas they are doing Aly quoting, not the resistive quoting.
So at this moment the question will come to whether it is only secondary electron emission, quoting that they are putting, or it is a complete stack that, what we are doing at E with income, and we need to test those lives and
with Macropecky. and, I think other colleagues.
We are looking that issue very thoroughly. May I comment on this?
Okay, yes, Charlie, thanks for for I'm Sorry for asking my question.
But the thing is that it seems that you don't see this this light emission in ailed and aluminum oxide coatings. but it's showing up in magnesium oxide coatings so if any experience
and or any idea why magnesium oxide should, emit 4 times during the amplification process.
In addition to electrons. Obviously, because this is simply the reason why this, why all this at our account rate, goes up suddenly at certain against. So it it really explodes at a certain point.
Yes, so I think this is again. both questions are will take on, and if Mj.
Is sensitive to this. put on emission. We have which is again Mjo gives highest gain.
That's why we are putting but at the same time we have alternative chemistry, like soium fluoride and some other chemistries will, We are exploring that and hopefully within calm.
And I think testing. Take a lot of time that's the only caveat here.
But making Mcp. now is much faster. So me and Mark will work on that particular topic, and hopefully, within a couple of months you will have answer, at least, which chemistry is not emitting light
Any other question. A cleaner? Yes, Thank you. I know.
Quick one. So what are the limitations of threed printing?
So size area size, I think 4 diameter We can shrink size also, but it's a timing that take printing because in a reality.
We need a larger form factor right now. We are doing centimeter square any text today.
Time because of single photon laser writing process.
So I think. there is another company here with, I think June Keys work, and we are also part of this Svi program.
They are looking into this, The goal here is to make larger form factor.
That's the limitation I see right now. But they are working on a bigger size printer, which will print larger area, and I think once for me as a material science point of view.
If you give me any substitute and you want to make this electron amplification, we can do that.
But at this moment i'm waiting for substrate if you have anything.
I'll be happy to you know, no I understand but my question was more, of course.
Okay, giving is an issue, but at some point with *d printing.
So if you go down to Micron reservoir that will be different. You can.
Yes, yes, but I mean in theory, so you could do other things so you could, let's say up a channel like a wiggle instead of producing vice and anna's zigzag and channel drawn kind of
you know those those things are possible. Yeah, yeah definitely it's only I think the writing speed is the right now slowing us.
But that's the goal of this Sbia that they want to get it to the next level of making larger winter Okay, Thank you.
Thank you any other question. I do miss them all questions so let's go to the next one is cool.
Thank you for your thank you. Oh, called the Hrtgd.
Yeah, yes. alright! Can everyone see my screen? Oh, yeah alright Hello, I'm Cole Hamil?
No, no, no, you need to see your screen you can't see my screen.
No, I didn't yeah yeah go ahead.
Okay. Sorry. Hello. i'm cole hamil senior associate research scientist here at income, and we're talking about i'll be talking about my upcoming sbir proposal which is lap Pds
and Hr. Ppd upgrades to or fast photo sensors for eic applications.
So start with 5 things you need to know about Lappd, or Hr.
Ppd, which is the sensors that we've been talking about all day, which are offered both in capacitably coupled and direct readout sensor formats.
The frugal price, so eic in particular, wants a volume of about 200 units, and so we can get down to a price at that point of about $20,000 per Lapd.
Or Hr. Pd. for manufacturing skills.
I want to make it clear that income does have the experience and infrastructure to fully support manufacturing scale-up, to ensure high quality tile delivery.
Well in advance of eic and other program needs in terms of technical specifications.
We've been over it a lot today, but La Pd and Hr.
Ppd. already meet most photosensor requirements for many physics experiments.
But this pending sbi application that I just submitted last week.
Well address critical developments for eic and other physics programs.
So the sensors. I just briefly wanted to show an example of a signboard that Alexander Kisslov used in this beam line trial.
So he already talked mostly about this about this, but I just wanted to show that he did see Turingkov signals using a custom Pcb. board, and that is the customer with a capacitorly coupled Lappd or
Hr. Pd. you can. you can make your own custom single signal boards and use them.
However, you want so frugal price Volume price discounts for Lapds and Hr.
Pds are available today. and we also like to split out our bear tile cost, which is $35,000 currently for one device versus our customer services cost.
So this cost is eventually going to decrease over time as we get to high volume manufacturing
But we break out the tile cost to give a better idea of what the actual La Ppd device price will be at high volume.
So we anticipate that at full manufacturing speed.
So if we get an order for 200 units for the Ic.
For example, for other programs, we expect the price between 30 and $20,000 per ltpd, which could be $52 per square centimeter.
For an Lapd and for really high volume manufacturer with scale up is independently funded.
We could, we should be able to get down to a divine price per device of $10,000.
So what do you get for all these customer services? So first and foremost is technical support.
As many of the presenter today can tell you. We offer broad technical support for our customers, both before they order an L. A.
Tpd, and after vital meet with you multiple times.
Well, you know, if you happen to have an lapd that fails on a beam line, and at cern over a long holiday weekend turns out we can scramble to get you a new device within a couple
of days. we offer it in-house workshop.
So if you want to come spend a couple of days at income, and actually I get hands on experience with an la Ppd or an Hr.
Pd. You can schedule that reach out to a representative from income, and we can get that scheduled
Every lapd comes from a with a full, comprehensive test.
Report we offer swaps if you have an early prototype.
Annie, for example, has taken advantage of this they were our first Lapd Customer, and we're set to replace the first L.
Ppd: We sent them next month, so that because the first lapd is just not up to par with what we can make today
And we also do a lot of work to make sure that we can export the lappd to your Country, if it's not the Us.
And that your country can import the La. Ppd.
So Google Price requires manufacturing scale up just to say that income we've been in business for 50 years.
We've about 200 employees that work on a variety of things, not just the lap Pd.
And that gives the company as a whole yearly sales of 30 million dollars.
We've got multiple facilities across the us the bottom line here is that we've done scale up for other product lines before, and we can do it for the lap.
Pd. So this is an example of an application so this is the Eic Lepton End cap.
There's a couple of different detector solutions possible.
They each have an active area of about one square meter.
So using an lapd with 6 capacity, with a couple of Pixels, that would be a about a 1,000 readout channels per lapd to cover with square meter ticks only 25
lapds at $20,000 each. This is half a 1 million dollars, and at room temperature these have a dark rate of less than 2 kilohertz per square centimeter versus a sipum.
So if you have a 26 by 26 sipum, which is a 8 by 8 array of 3 pixels.
You need about 1,500 sipoms symptom arrays like this to cover a square meter, and the price is about the same to a $20,000 lapd.
And on top of that, of course, sipoms need to be cooled to minus 25, c.
To bring dark rates down to an acceptable level so we're doing a lot of critical developments to ensure that Lapd gets better and better for our customers.
So ongoing developments that we've discussed today. so currently most of our Lapds have 20 micron pores, but we're slowly making prototypes with 10 micron. pores the latest one came out
last week. So this is ongoing development we've talked about our glass body with a 5 anode. We've developed a ceramic body with a 2 thick, anodes that gives you a stronger
capacity. coupled signals because it's thinner and also because ceramic has a higher dielectric constant than glass.
So that will get better performance and we mentioned before June. she had this talk about Befield tolerance.
So I won't go 2 in depth with that but just that.
We're going back early next year to verify validate and expand those P.
Field tests. As we said before, we do get up to one Tesla, the game does fall by over a factor of 10.
By increasing voltages we can bring the gain up.
We talked about building the L. A. Pd. in the magnetic field, and how gain changes with that?
But how? for this Gen. One device we had to read out over multiple strips.
And so that's something else that we're gonna have to test again early next year.
So getting, too. my sbir so this sbi proposal.
That's currently awaiting a validation by the us Department of Energy.
So the main focus focuses are to redshift the photo cathode quantum efficiency.
So we can get comparable photon detection efficiency to sipoms at 450 nanometers.
You're gonna continue to do life testing work with Uta.
So bar geese already talked about that they've demonstrated 5 kilometres per centimeter squared of lifetime.
So we're going to Validate and expand those results to push it past 5.
Coulombs to see what happens we're also gonna send them a device with our new red shifted photo cathodes.
They can like test that Vincenzo explained.
Much better than I can that the la ppd with when exposed to 20 gev protons. shows very little game change.
We're also interested in electronic readout as nail we already talked about so the Hr.
Ppd. The Dc. coupled version has a 1,000 channels per device.
As so Nelu is currently the front runner in correct ways, to read out that many channels with their Dsa. E.
1096, which has 96 channels per device so we're going to be testing that i'll bring that up more later on, and Alexey is going to give a talk about changing the form factor.
So for Annie, who was our first customer they didn't really care about putting 2 lapds right next to each other.
But eic and i'm sure many other programs do care about that.
Quite a bit, so we're going to increase the active area and decrease the folk put print of the L. A.
Tpds that we can do closer tiling of our devices.
So to get into the arrow jail spectrum.
So on the left we have a queue spectrum for Lap, Pd.
126, and we wanna redshift this a little bit. So currently the peak is at 365 nanometers.
But, as you see in the middle this is from the Panda Forward Ridge detector.
If you use an arrow, Joe Radiator, you cut off most of your light below 350 nanometers, and so to pick up more of that light.
We want to redshift our queue spectrum so that we can have higher. Q.
We at this 400 to 500 nanometer range. which puts it more towards the photon detection efficiency of sip them, as you see in the right part of the Sbirs that we're gonna actually directly measure
photon detection efficiency. in an L. A. Pd.
For the first time, which is something that we've just never directly measured.
So Alexander showed his method of reading out 256 channels of the Hr.
Ppd, which is the most that is ever been read out so he's currently implementing this with pogo pins.
But what We're going to do here at income cause we're going to rent a dsa e 196 device from Nalu.
They're gonna make a custom one for us that only has 64 channels, and they're gonna make us a custom printed circuit board, or at least that's the plan according to this Sbir so that we can read
out 64, 25, pixels, and attach the circuit board directly to La Ppd.
Connect this device to the circuit board and actually read out a whole la Pd.
For the first time. So in summary the sensors, we have direct coupled Hr. ppds, which we find useful for the Dirk applications for theic for pastly coupled lap Pds and
Hr. Pds. for rich applications, and these are available for today for rental or purchase.
People have asked me. When could I rent an lappd, or buy an L. A.
Ppd. we can send you a quote today. So we go price.
So our cost per unit area is already competitive with the existing technologies. but we're going to drive it down further manufacturing scale up.
If a program like Eic or others needs hundreds of devices.
Income can deliver hundreds of devices technic specifications.
The La Ppd and Hr. Ppd. already meet.
Most eic and other physics program requirements, but in terms of critical developments.
With support of this pending Sbir program income will develop critical Lit, Pd. and Hr.
Pd. improvements for optimal customized eic performance, which should also benefit other physics programs as well.
So now it's Alexis talk That's all I have Thank you. Thank you.
Call Alexey
I'd say we can share your screen now
Yeah, Go ahead.
Okay, we have 3 o'clock. go ahead
You need to unmute
Yeah, there you are working on it, you mean. Give us a second, please.
Some of us are in their desk somewhere in the conference room and that's where he's at there is alright.
Can you hear me now? Yes, sir. yeah. some technical difficulties.
But well, my talk will be focused on them.
There is a kind of a There was lots of discussions about whether the active area, 2 of either or hrtp can be increased because there's, for instance, Celia mentioned this morning all our morning that
the active area of Ltpd altogether with the enclosure, and everything is not exceeding 50%.
So that is pretty bad, for if one needs to tile those devices together, and this talk will be was focused on how this can be realized.
I just wanna oh, so just some a general considerations about what what's defined, what we define as a active area fraction.
So, as you can see here, active area of the device is defined by the area of the fourth account.
That, and the Mcps under underneath the fourth kath that can be actively
Excited, and the signal can be read from this area. So this put some a limitations on the on the overall active area fraction, which is defined as a ratio of the un obscured detector area to the detective
footprints, so they take their footprint, is defined by this additional additional obscured area of the device which which includes contact overlap for Mcps.
Then the side will of the detector, and also the enclosure.
In this talk I will be mostly focusing on the reducing the sidewalk in the contact overlap, because the enclosure can can be modified rather easily.
Yeah. and of course, the main idea behind the minimizing the enclosure.
At that there is to move all the power and the readout the electrodes to the back side of the Elliot. either Ld.
Ppd so at present. So if we just remove the enclosure from the atpd and it can be well.
At present the enclosure is far from being final It's, just something that would provide, and other quit and the safe powering of the biasing of Lapd and the mounting the red on board But in the future
the Everything needs to be moved to the backside of the tile.
So without the enclosure. The active we refraction of L.
Vpd is about 72% that includes, this active area minus the E A.
Divided by the area of this footprint that includes spacer that overlaps with a M Cp.
With themcpes. then the sign will, and this wings that are sticking out from the right and the left hand side here that would provide a high power high voltage contacts, and also grounded for the capacity
coupled, you know, If it is capacity from couple door a there'll be a street line we is street lines.
If there is a 3 plan readout, so just to several features of Lapds that were that were already listed, so it's either available in capacity version of street plan, read out.
So it has a You can be glossal ceramic body, with the ceramic body having a 2 thick.
Ceramic animal, and the M. Cps are actually not so.
It was actually a larger than the than the active area.
They had 2 or 3 by 2 or 3
So, and the Mcps are available, either with that 10 micron ports or a 20 microports, and the ceramic lapd body, with the 2 thick. A Co.
Cerami Canon is also available. It is is shown by the way on the lower right.
If we look at at the present, we this presently available.
Hrtpd design. It has a gap.
No, it has no spacers for structural support, as we had in the Lev Pd.
You can see it needs a structure or the sweeps running across the the active area to provide us a other quick structural support for the window.
In. in case of http there is no structure.
There is no need for structural support. because the window can we stand the The atmosphere?
Pressure is it in its own so it's there's no spacers here.
No structural support, and the at present Hr. Ppd.
In this design operates, and the gap with some CD configuration.
So there's a the M Cps are stuck back to back, with no gap in between it uses one weight, but by one weight millimeter Amcp.
Size, and as of now, it is exclusively available in a 10 micrometer Napore size.
And if we're talking about the dc coupled tile with the with the direct the readout, the annals, the each.
Each. Alan has a 2 and a half, 2 2, 54 sizing with it 3 well per roughly, 3 point, 8 peach.
So it's a 32 by 32 Ra.
Providing 2, 24 so they'll pick, so count.
So what? And if you talk about the active area at present the active area is pretty low, it's about 69 and 69%.
And now we're gonna be talking about ways how this can be extended or enlarged.
So so everything i'm gonna show today. is kind of so sort of proven in a very preliminary stage.
So it can be further modified later on. But the main idea behind is is will be shown.
So as you see in the present design with a 69 don't either active area fraction.
It can be further increased by the reducing the thickness of the side wall.
The annual footprint as well as reducing the overlap between the contact.
Well, Alexa electrode that contacts the Mcps so it could be increased easily.
Not easily, but in principle it can be increased to about 80% activated fraction relative to what we have right now.
So this was achieved by just reducing the overlap.
So, as you can see here, with instead of 100 active area side, it was extended to about one o 4 activities side, and, as I mentioned earlier, this side was also the reduced the thickness of the side was also
reduced. So this is listed here. Oh, well, there there!
There could be some concerns when we realized this first is that if we squeeze the side will end the spacings between the gaps between this site will in the Mcps.
We may have, we may, we may experience some, probably high voltage and stabilities because of the reduced distances between the electrodes.
Then the month we haven't really contacted the vendor.
Yet whether this site will this thinner sidewal is easy to manufacture. but i'm pretty sure it is. So it's there's no major, and we're show stoppers in here I
think, and oh, if you reduce the side will with not with but
Thickness. then the contact area between the indium and the for the Catholic window will be or used. So I don't know whether we will face any ceiling challenges.
And also, as we reduce the overlap between the Mcps and the contact. in electrodes, you may experience some higher dark rates from the a so called age noise.
If we have a if we, if you expose the edge, is more so.
This are the challenges we will need to face. in order to realize this concept.
But in in any keys, this concept we will be realized by achieving some compromise between high open area higher open area and electrical stability and all the other concerns that that I mentioned here Now
this is just a show what what the added coverage would look like.
So in the on the right hand side you can see the present configuration with the 1024 pixels, and they are 2 and a half millimeter.
Each will 2, 54, but it doesn't matter 2, 52, and a half.
Millimeter pairs with the 1024 pixels in order to get to a higher open area.
So there are 2 ways whether we keep the same pixel, count, but cut chop a little bit of of the Mcp.
Sites, or we just keep the same Mcp. size. but we add another row of pixels on on each side.
You can see here that that total is about 1077 pixels.
So this is also doable. Well, both cases can be can be realized.
However, we we, with the first case I described, with which we we need to cut down. The Mcp.
Is a little bit then there is a it's a lot.
It's a big, a challenge in terms of remanufacturing all the featuring for the Mcp.
Is mobilization, and all the stuff so If we keep the same pixel. same with themcp dimensions that we don't.
We don't have to do anything so it can be realized sooner.
So This is what's gonna happen with the another thing.
I wanted to. this is. by the way, this is just the end, with no spacers inside, Will.
This is how it looks like. this is a present configuration on the right hand side, and you can see here only 2 connections to to the Mcps top and bottom, because they are stacked up to back to back this configuration
is kind of is possible. However, it the gain in this configuration is somewhat reduced, as compared to the configuration with Mcps.
Have back, have back, have a gap in between, and can be powered independently.
So in a new, and that we are yet to be yet to design.
So this is very preliminary design. The Mcps will be powered independently.
So here we have a 2, a 4 high voltage complex that are represented by these dots, and also there is a around this pixel array.
There is a ground in so called free. This is to protect electronics.
If there is a breakdown or something or so.
These are the electronics from high voltage. Alex.
Yeah So i'm i'm done so another question that we need to raise is that we really need to, and a half millimeter pixel size.
It can be extended to 3 pixels size 3.
Yes, Well, when it's a cac area minimal requirement is 3 so this can be easily extended to 3 and this would reduce a T channel account to about 772
pixels as shown here, and then this is not a question for discussion.
So thank you for for listening. and this is some conclusion we can potentially increase active.
We are in both Ltpds or Hr.
Ppds and in the Hrtpds we can achieve like 80% open area.
And if there is height in, if there is in the mind, can go with a large pixel size in Hr.
Ppd directly coupled. Thanks, Thank you, Alexia.
And still we are. Go ahead for your question first.
Thank you for this preview as I have not to seen directly any Hr.
Ppd. How is the high voltage distributed there?
Because this is essential to understand that also the planning for increased active area, that you have shown how this is done.
Presently. So if you look at the yeah, if you look at the airlines, so the added is, this is the
So So each one of these handled pads is a is a video.
So the are not the pattern on both sides user so it's. what do you see here?
You can see, you see at the bottom of the Hr.
Ppd. and I have a picture here of Http.
So this is this is how it looks bottom. This is really Ali http and the
The voltage distributed. so each M. Cp. has a kind of a metal frame on top.
So a stack of the Mcps. in this case, because they are stuck back to back, they they have a a metal free on top of the Mcp.
Stack and on the bottom, and then this metal frame is connected to this Leo Pans.
On the on the bottom, and by using a say Apollo teams you can apply high voltage to it.
So this is this how it's done and the Well, there is there in in If you interested how it is distributed inside, and there are little springs in there that contact Mcp.
Electrode and and go and and and and the pan on the redout plane.
Yes, because okay, I notice that the zoom phase of this contact is very small.
Yeah. surface is very small. it's Yes, and This is an aspect that may be should be change the in the sense that one would like to have a marbles connection for high voltage so you are
with different. you would like, the things are variables, you know.
Experience tells me that when an experiment is getting a little bit older after a few years from the floor, the first things that frame are connected. And therefore, yeah, something more. Booth should be imagine and implemented. they would say this is make. sense.
Yeah, we are actually working with the Alexander about how to connect those with those connectors.
To a high to high voltage. when there are several ideas. one is povertyens, as already mentioned, that there are some other ways with a soldier in a context to this.
So these pets because these are not metalization.
It's it's a through vs so one can probably solder them
Okay, I don't think that we find the solution here on the spot.
It was that's the general message I have a question you will of course, benefit having from having smaller pixel size.
If you reduce button Smcp. to annoy distance.
If you have 5 gap, the charge will be distributed over many pixels.
Okay with with the gap right now, it is about one and a half neilly meet her.
Okay, So that's good. Yeah. Oh, okay, okay, so that that that's much better.
Yes, I thought 5 no no no no it's 5 is the anna thickness is in the Mcps and also in the in the you know our basic Oh, well, baseline.
Design of the A lapd is 6 gap, but in in this device it's it's just one and a half A millimeter profile in other device.
You would use like much larger pixels, presumably because he would not have benefit from a smaller pixel Size Yes, okay.
Understand? Alright, correct, go ahead. yeah, Actually, that was basically my question, too.
I was trying to understand the rational behind the the so-called gapless mcp configuration.
Because I mean I I guess if you're looking at some charge sharing they could read out You You want to spread the charge out so.
Yeah. Yeah. So gopless, that was just the original design of Hr: Ppd: And in the next iteration, which which gonna happen sooner or later, a rather sooner it will have
independent powering, as you can see here, so there is it's independent powering for each.
Mcp. and there will be a gap about the 1 and cap in between the Mcps as well.
If I recall our measurements no it's 15 years ago.
Sorry we We measured for 5 gap between Button and Cp.
And unknown fully that much to about 6
So we we are, you know we we? At that time Berlin had one and a half 1 million meetings pixels actually, and we could not benefit from it.
So one is to find some optimum basically yeah little bit of charge. sharing helps, but too much that it's not very good. Yeah, It it.
It's clearly coupled to the design of the I mean for direct you out.
It's one thing but you try to do some sort of charge sharing It's it's coupled to the that we have so so some optimization there.
So the thing is the thing here is that, yeah, we will need to select just one design, which we will be proceeding because this have a long lead time.
And they are pretty expensive. Well, it's it's not like they are expensive per device.
But so there is a tool in charge that is, with every iteration there is a tool in charge which is pretty high.
So we will go with some configuration.
That would be is that that would that would be, that was satisfied.
All all the parts I mean, whether we we want.
We wanna go with 2, 3 pixel size or 2, 2 and a half millimeter pixel size.
This is yet to be decided, and then and it's directly coupled model that we're looking at right now.
Most of the signal is isolated to one pixel.
But then you get something like 10 or 15%, on either side. So you can still do, centroid if you want given the gap that Alex you mentioned between the Mcp.
And the and that's what we see now so is it easy to if you kept the gap between the the twomcps.
Whatever you decide to to vary the back between the West.
Mcp. and the editor. Is that easy to change it?
Easy. Yeah, it is. Yeah. So you can still tune zoom.
That is yeah, we can tune that. we cannot really tune the an on well, we we will have one it 3, one new iteration of the end.
But all the rest can be chewed. Okay, Thanks. And And just to note in parallel with this work, with the capacitively coupled Hr.
Ppd. Were already in the with the new sidewalk design, and putting in gap mcps with that 30 or 40,000 gap in between. and we can play around with those gaps in that model before you know while this one has
been redesigned, quoted, ordered, and and then we have the long lead time.
So. So that is there are independently run.
Thanks, Mike. Yeah, I just wanted to mention that we also have this capacity.
We couple the Hr. Ppd version, in which we will be kind of playing with the Gap size and the side will height and stuff. so we can come to a to an optimal optimal configuration and the the
with the capacitively coupled Hr. Ppd.
We can do it in house most of the most of the stuff can be done in house.
And this is this is our next step to optimize the capacity to a couple version of this device.
Okay, so I can say there and have your question. Well, I think this all sounds very intelligent.
So thank you gentlemen for the presentation so several It's obvious that several comments on which we came up in the last months and weeks taken into account, and either made it into the brook proposal so let's hope
that the speller proposal is funded. Bye bye, bye, bye, bye.
Bye also sees several positive changes here. so certainly we don't want stack Mcps, and I would vote against the 1,077 pixels, because this number just doesn't sound right to me that would be a 1,000, to 24 minus change because of the contacts
or whatever, so about other designs. So I think the sequence for me would be the first measure on the trash sharing where residual chat here increase the tile which we got So with the startup excel
Jerry, I think we we have almost no doubts that certain residual chat sharing will be there which would provide, I think, better special resolution, maybe much better.
And then the size over square root 12. So we just need to confirm this.
So once we confirm this. so at that point we probably would need to think about.
Maybe an ultramatic design of this plate because i'm sure that eventually people will start asking questions.
So can we get this in a different pixelation, or whatever, and in a long term, I think if you had, if you had 2 options, for example, so obviously here is, you can implement 2 if you connect groups of 2 by 2
pixels together, something something in between. Maybe we would also be beneficial.
So like. I showed, for example, for for Vic configuration.
So we know that formula, meter pitch is fine.
So then sounds like 24 by 24 might be about right option.
So So one other question, which i've had before as long as we're on this slide, so remind me, please what happens? if electrons and between pixels, so so?
Why, why this gap is, is that wide between the pixels? I think it's the limitation of the manufacturing process.
So are we expecting what like charging up at some point or how?
Oh, it's a little bit of course there is a resistivity so it will bleed away.
But you know it will affect higher rate behavior at some point
Must be tested. Yeah. So should we probably also check what the manufacturing limit is.
So maybe they can be minimized in the next iteration.
Right, Alex. This is Annie from oregon that's a really good point.
That gap between these 2 patch. So what happened is electron falling in that area?
I think, one of those projects that we worked in past, or scratching the charge end up being gold pad, or whatever material they will use.
It. but then in between we can put resistive coating.
Not too short, though. And then you can still pull that charge towards next away.
Or who are next pad? Basically, yeah, we We were discussing the prcles internally, whether we can put the say Al decoding on top of it.
And short, those gold appeal or whatever that good paradise, 3 by 3 billion or 2 point, 5 million of it. talking about the internal side or external it's both sides, Yeah.
Putting 14 inside and out. Yeah, Okay.
Alright. so I give you a single question. So Okay, yeah.
So we should start using the main increased. would not have a problem to put all these thousands of 1,000 to 120 email addresses to subscribe all these people, and if somebody is not happy, so they can
unsubscribe, but doing it this way, so we will not miss people from time to time, as we did in the last week.
But the other thing is that if you don't mind Alexey for example.
So you consent. Suggestions like this to the main increase.
Then maybe get some prompt feedback. Yeah, that would be useful to yeah, sure.
So if you
Sorry. speaking of people who have been missed out so far.
I only found out about this last minute, and we have, as you heard from from Glasgow, and last time Edinburgh, a growing community of La Ppd users in the Uk.
Most of whom Aren't on the list so who should I get in touch with in order to get people added.
So if you authorize me to make this change subscribe people, so I will do this and then send email to to everyone whom we what we know so far.
And then, of course, you can point people to this man in place that will be maintained by Bml.
It will be our card and the way we usually do this for for our collaborations.
So if this is what we want, I will certainly do so.
Then all the materials will be an open archer, so that people can go back and see.
But particular threats and things like that. that sounds good to me.
Thank you very much. There are people in Thorpe experiment, and they are British.
Okay.
Okay, is that all we have? So thank you, everyone for joining the workshop.
And I believe that we have this kind of workshop twice every year.
So next time we will announce earlier. so that's where you can get in touch with Michael?
You want to add something to just just wait saying goodbye and thanking everybody for their participation.
Okay, thank you. and next time we probably should if we are really getting that late and it's already a 5 always on the phone.
So maybe this thought Start Point was overcomed in the in the other direction.
Yeah, well, done, thank you. Bye, bye, bye, bye, bye.