Alexander Kiselev: Yeah, thank you, Sylvia. So unfortunately we missed the recording of the of the
of this first presentation.
Alexander Kiselev: A junior. Are you online?
Junqi Xie: Okay, very good. So then you will be moderating the first half.
Junqi Xie: Okay. So I think the first talk about the overview talk from income and the let's see.
Junqi Xie: I see Alexey has already uploaded the talk. So, Alexey.
Alexey Lyashenko: Yeah.
Junqi Xie: yeah, go ahead and share your to it, just to keep my mind that we are running a short workshop, so we want to keep everybody in time, so
Junqi Xie: keep the time. I will make sure you guys are on the time, so we will have the workshop not to delay it too much. Alright, Go ahead, Alexy.
Alexey Lyashenko: Okay, so that should I share my screen or yes, go ahead and share your screen, please? Okay.
So
Alexey Lyashenko: yeah.
Alexey Lyashenko: okay, Can you see? Can you see anything?
Junqi Xie: It's we?
Junqi Xie: There we go. Okay.
Alexey Lyashenko: Can you see now what? What? What do you see.
Junqi Xie: I see the the website, the now Pd workshop website.
Alexey Lyashenko: And now, if
Alexey Lyashenko: okay, let me just stop sharing.
Alexey Lyashenko: and i'll share it again.
Ross Corliss: It may be simplest to share your entire screen, and then just make your presentation. That's a
Alexey Lyashenko: that's what i'm trying to
Junqi Xie: to. Can you see?
Junqi Xie: Okay, the slide? That still mode it. Yes.
Alexey Lyashenko: okay.
Junqi Xie: So we now see your presenter mode, so we can also see your your next slide and your notes
Junqi Xie: that should be fine. Let's go ahead, because here's for 30. That's the using the wider screen.
Alexey Lyashenko: All right. So I will just
Alexey Lyashenko: couple of the
Junqi Xie: so. Yeah.
Alexey Lyashenko: huh?
Alexey Lyashenko: Okay. Well, it will be a quick update on the status of this Hrpd development for a
in a.
Alexey Lyashenko: I'll just
Alexey Lyashenko: focus here on the tasks that we we that we set
Alexey Lyashenko: to complete this development.
Junqi Xie: and
Alexey Lyashenko: I will
Alexey Lyashenko: talk more about the what's the
Alexey Lyashenko: What about the status of it? So
Alexey Lyashenko: as the task that we are With that we defined
Alexey Lyashenko: our as shown here in the schedules and the schedule so spans from January this year. when we had the first meeting
Alexey Lyashenko: on Nature, Ppd. Development for a/C. And it
Alexey Lyashenko: until the until the end of the year, more or less, when we expect to produce
Alexey Lyashenko: the 5 yeah work in tiles
Alexey Lyashenko: for a. So the the task has subdivided on this. The whole project is subdivided into 8
Alexey Lyashenko: tasks. and
Alexey Lyashenko: here we
Alexey Lyashenko: we are, showing an approximate schedule for it. and where we are now. and
Alexey Lyashenko: the percentage will kind of approximate percentage of completion of each of the tasks.
Alexey Lyashenko: So and I I will, as i'm sure in this slide as an outline.
Alexey Lyashenko: and that will
Alexey Lyashenko: share some details from each of the tasks in the later on. So the one of the of, and one of the most important tasks
Alexey Lyashenko: is a
Alexey Lyashenko: is to demonstrate a reliable ceramic to
Alexey Lyashenko: window Ceramics window to ceramic package seal.
Alexey Lyashenko: We had some
Alexey Lyashenko: the success with it in the past. however.
Alexey Lyashenko: we would like to improve yields of ceiling to to, to, to show yields of ceiling
Alexey Lyashenko: of more than like 80%,
Alexey Lyashenko: and this is
Alexey Lyashenko: more or less. What these tasks involves in is to develop is the development of the not development, but
Alexey Lyashenko: optimization of the ceramic medalization and performing ceiling trials.
Alexey Lyashenko: so I would call it a 60% complete. because we've already performed some ceiling trials with the new metalization
Alexey Lyashenko: on the ceramic, and one of the example here of the ceiling trial. So we try to seal a
Alexey Lyashenko: our capacity will couple the early Ppd. And I have to mention here that all these packages, for really Vpds are the existing stock. so we haven't we haven't purchased yet.
Alexey Lyashenko: Well they they have been ordered, but we haven't purchased yet, the
Alexey Lyashenko: and some of the parts for the Eac, the Hrps.
Alexey Lyashenko: or have not been purchased yet.
Alexey Lyashenko: So we are just trying. We are doing the ceiling trails on our existing stock parts.
Alexey Lyashenko: So, as an example you see, here is a capacitively couple H or Ppd.
Alexey Lyashenko: And I would call this a ceiling trail. It's a a success. However, the tile is not operable, as you can see that
Alexey Lyashenko: the amount of windium in the Indian well, in this, in this sidewal need to be, we need to be optimized because you can see that the indium leaked. However, the tile
Alexey Lyashenko: works a
Alexey Lyashenko: well before the cut. It cannot be utilized because this is the Indian breach. The photo cut it in the Nhcp. But the Mcp is working. and we were able to measure
Alexey Lyashenko: pulses and the password distributions of the noise.
Alexey Lyashenko: and we didn't see any discoloration of the for the credit.
Alexey Lyashenko: After 2 weeks this style was sealed, so I would call this ceiling trial as a success. So there is 2 more ceiling trials to go
Alexey Lyashenko: with this medalization.
Alexey Lyashenko: and we also thinking about backup option. If we we weren't, if we are not. We can. If we can't achieve
Alexey Lyashenko: seal and yield what we're going. The appropriate ceiling yield what we're going to do next. So 3 ceiling trials planned. One was completed to other will be completed the in the end of by the end of May.
Alexey Lyashenko: So this is, and based on that. We will move forward with the whether it be use the existing mentalization of the backup options. I I i'm. Pretty sure we will. We use the existing utilization as it
Alexey Lyashenko: as as it goes now.
So next task
Alexey Lyashenko: the in a design and fabrication.
Alexey Lyashenko: so this involves
Alexey Lyashenko: design of the all-temperature co-fired ceramic annot with direct coupling
Alexey Lyashenko: not a capacity with a couple
Alexey Lyashenko: here. Not so.
Alexey Lyashenko: Alexander. We'll talk more about it, but just I just kind of i'm going to. I'm just going to mention that we are working with a third-party vendor
Alexey Lyashenko: from Poland, called tectra.
Alexey Lyashenko: and so far we are in the in the following state. The status is the following: so 3 tests by 3 test pieces or sorry. 2 test pieces, 2
Alexey Lyashenko: for fabricated
Alexey Lyashenko: in a 3 by 3 inches form factor. and the full size in it
Alexey Lyashenko: has been designed, and now, being fabricated.
Alexey Lyashenko: so I would call it, like 50% complete. However, we haven't yet received the the the the the full-size one
Alexey Lyashenko: a prototype in it, so we will hear more about it in the Alexander's talk.
Alexey Lyashenko: So I just mentioned here. These are how the test pieces are looking like this. How the test pieces look like. So it's just a
Alexey Lyashenko: You can see the back backside on the top
Alexey Lyashenko: and the
Alexey Lyashenko: the top side of the pieces. So where there is some segmentation with the pixels same size pixels as we would use in the in the in the
Alexey Lyashenko: final prototype. and also some connectivity options here
Alexey Lyashenko: with the some tech connectors as well as with the yeah.
Alexey Lyashenko: Mc. X. I would be with our connectors here.
Alexey Lyashenko: So electrical integrity has been verified, or although there is some war pitch in one of the prototype that is
Alexey Lyashenko: beyond the specs.
Alexey Lyashenko: So this we are. We are solving this issue now with tectra. but and also
Alexey Lyashenko: so we'll see how it looks in the in the in the next full-size prototype
Alexey Lyashenko: so electrical integrity verified trace capacitance has been measured, however, with the
Alexey Lyashenko: with the equipment we have on hand.
Alexey Lyashenko: we were only only able to measure capacity that the the capacitances within 10 pico farad for each of the trees is
Alexey Lyashenko: from the pad to the to the connector. And well it is
Alexey Lyashenko: we can, we can, we can say for sure is that it is less than 10 pico for that, for for the longest trees.
Alexey Lyashenko: So now internal connectors connections. This is a response to Silvia, the objection, not a bijection, but suggestion that the spring, a spring
Alexey Lyashenko: compression. Spring contacts cannot be reliable on the long-term and we were
Alexey Lyashenko: looking for options. How this can be made in a more reliable way.
Alexey Lyashenko: So so, and we found that to to a solution that
Alexey Lyashenko: we got we got rid of the Compression Springs instead. We
Alexey Lyashenko: breathe contacts directly onto the Internet.
Alexey Lyashenko: and the the connection has have been tested.
Alexey Lyashenko: So you can see here and examples of brace contacts we use here a low temperature, breeze, alloy.
Alexey Lyashenko: and these contacts proved to be very reliable.
Alexey Lyashenko: and to
Alexey Lyashenko: some of the ceramic packages were were manufactured with the
Alexey Lyashenko: braced contacts. and
Alexey Lyashenko: this Hrp. Pd. 9 I I mentioned about it also had this braced contact is actually the first test of this braced contacts.
Alexey Lyashenko: and you can see that the package has been assembled and sealed.
Alexey Lyashenko: and the the reliability of the contacts have been verified on the sealed package.
Alexey Lyashenko: So
Alexey Lyashenko: the next next step why this is not yet completed. This task is not yet completed, because we are waiting
Alexey Lyashenko: on the full-size prototype
Alexey Lyashenko: as well as we haven't, yet tested
Alexey Lyashenko: this, a low temperature breezing alloy on on the test pieces that we got from tectra.
Alexey Lyashenko: and this is being done right now. indoor
Alexey Lyashenko: we hope to test all the
Alexey Lyashenko: the the the full-size prototype by the end of June
Alexey Lyashenko: and test prototypes by the end of april
Alexey Lyashenko: small-size prototypes by the end of April
Alexey Lyashenko: Now
Alexey Lyashenko: for the internal components
Alexey Lyashenko: as we discussed earlier in January. that the active area of the device it has to be a increased
Alexey Lyashenko: and based on that we've designed
Alexey Lyashenko: and new stack components that would that would allow for 75% open area. This includes spacer schemes and getter connections in the package.
Alexey Lyashenko: and the components have been ordered from a third party vendor. So yeah, this is more or less what how it looks like.
Alexey Lyashenko: So the active area from the present design. which, with a with a 100, with a 10 by 10 cm. Open area has been expanded to about
Alexey Lyashenko: 104 by 104 mm
Alexey Lyashenko: open area. That makes it a 75% active area fraction.
Alexey Lyashenko: And this is how these components look like. So these are. This is an example of this spacers and schemes I mentioned about so internal components have been ordered
Alexey Lyashenko: already, and they expect delivery some.
Alexey Lyashenko: so i'm in the midway.
Alexey Lyashenko: and after that the stack will be assembled with the existing.
Alexey Lyashenko: if they are capacitably coupled, or DC. Coupled
Alexey Lyashenko: in it, to to verify
Alexey Lyashenko: the electrical stability and all the stuff in the seal tile.
Alexey Lyashenko: I read out board, so I yes, as as we. They're designing a new a note. It would require a new readout board.
Alexey Lyashenko: and this is not not a trivial task.
Alexey Lyashenko: because this is this is about how to reliably connect signals to the back of the air. Not that we are
Alexey Lyashenko: that we are designing.
Alexey Lyashenko: I think you will hear more about this in Alexander's talk, but
Alexey Lyashenko: it's a it's it is
Alexey Lyashenko: a 2 design. The board, as well as
Alexey Lyashenko: how this board can be attached
Alexey Lyashenko: to the back of the Internet so that the
Alexey Lyashenko: device, so they
Alexey Lyashenko: Hr. Ppd. Can can be made a tilable with the minimal gap in in between the detectors.
Alexey Lyashenko: So, and we are discussing. We will be discussing here different connectivity options, and I think we we came to a
Alexey Lyashenko: conclusion to a solution sorry.
Alexey Lyashenko: and this solution will be discussed more in the Alexander talk.
Alexey Lyashenko: Alexander's talk
Alexey Lyashenko: now tell performance so it's as we are progressing towards the American actual
Alexey Lyashenko: Hrpds.
Alexey Lyashenko: The performance of the tile will be optimized to meet with the Eac needs.
Alexey Lyashenko: and
Alexey Lyashenko: the needs are appropriate. Key in appropriate dark reads
Alexey Lyashenko: tell the ability and to realize, gapped Mcps. And this is actually
Alexey Lyashenko: involves a
Alexey Lyashenko: some of the task tasks I I mentioned. I mentioned above. and also fought a Catholic optimization as the photoc
Alexey Lyashenko: is the main source of dark count rates for the cut that can be optimized to minimize those dark counts. And this is the this. This includes into the this is included in this task.
Alexey Lyashenko: So for the credit optimization, and also the
Alexey Lyashenko: a photoc, that sensitivity
Alexey Lyashenko: will be well. We will be working towards that, to extend the photoc that's sensitivity towards
Alexey Lyashenko: blue, a
Alexey Lyashenko: greenish, so so to say, a region.
Alexey Lyashenko: So this task is far from being complete.
Alexey Lyashenko: So we know, for for the for the cathedral's development.
Alexey Lyashenko: So right now, as you can see, this is our more or less
Alexey Lyashenko: state of the are photographed on the left hand side. It's a photograph that we are producing routinely based on sodium and potassium and tmonite. in order to extend its its sensitivity
Alexey Lyashenko: towards a blue and green region.
Alexey Lyashenko: the composition will have to be modified
Alexey Lyashenko: as well as some of the probably the deposition techniques
Alexey Lyashenko: will need to be altered.
Alexey Lyashenko: So we are working towards that, so you can see it's on the on the right hand side.
Alexey Lyashenko: One can use some rubidium based for the C. That in order to extend sensitivity
Alexey Lyashenko: to to towards red. So we we are now developing that there are 40 cathed options with a kind of intermediate success. So so far the photoc has that been produced
Alexey Lyashenko: with the rubidium base for the current being produced.
Alexey Lyashenko: You can see the by the way, it has a shoulder
Alexey Lyashenko: in the wavelength
Alexey Lyashenko: between 3, 65, and 4 50,
Alexey Lyashenko: the weary as the earth
Alexey Lyashenko: sodium for the that has kind of a steep decline from 3, 3, 65, so it's. This is kind of looking promising. However, the quantum efficiency of
Alexey Lyashenko: 30% as we would like to achieve hasn't been achieved yet.
Alexey Lyashenko: So we perform. But it's just. We perform just several trials with the rubidian-based food, the card that
Alexey Lyashenko: we have some ideas how to improve how to shift
the
Alexey Lyashenko: the sensitivity by applying
Alexey Lyashenko: some under layers
Alexey Lyashenko: to improve antimony. First, antimony, layer quantity, and also we have some ideas how to improve
Alexey Lyashenko: thermal noise, so how to reduce thermal noise in the for the C. And this will be also realized before before September
Alexey Lyashenko: tail of so tellability. The a note will be shown this year, and it will be shown.
Alexey Lyashenko: I just wanted to point out that here that
Alexey Lyashenko: we also developed it not only developed, but we also manufactured a toileable version of the capacitively coupled in it, you can see here this Ernet has a direct view. As
Alexey Lyashenko: for the contacts. and on the right-hand side upper right.
Alexey Lyashenko: you can see the back of it. On the upper left. You can see the the actual anod
Alexey Lyashenko: well without the end. It applied, of course.
but you can see it's, it's it much is the
Alexey Lyashenko: geometry of the sidewall.
Alexey Lyashenko: So if these in these, the tiles, when sealed.
Alexey Lyashenko: will be a toilet, and the the connections can be realized on the big side
Alexey Lyashenko: gap. 10 cps has been also realized
Alexey Lyashenko: in a new package. You can see here a cross-section with a little gap between the Mcps.
Alexey Lyashenko: and also produced
Alexey Lyashenko: G between the photograph and the Mcp. It's a. It's about a millimeter gap between the photograph of a and the Mcps. and also about a millimeter gap between the Mcps.
Alexey Lyashenko: So this has been already realized as a shown to this this new
Alexey Lyashenko: ceiling trial. Hr. Ppg. 9, that it has these gapped Mcps, and they they prove
Alexey Lyashenko: to work. Actually, they They're proven to work.
Alexey Lyashenko: So summary
Alexey Lyashenko: we start with. The bad news is that
Alexey Lyashenko: the the Sbr. Contract that we have been running on the sheet and Ppd. Development. his ending
Alexey Lyashenko: pretty soon, actually within next couple weeks in May.
Alexey Lyashenko: So the the financial side of question. The the only
Alexey Lyashenko: option that we have is to
Alexey Lyashenko: move the it to to the company funds.
Alexey Lyashenko: which is kind of
Alexey Lyashenko: not very so. It doesn't have very good vibes from from the upper management.
Alexey Lyashenko: So we need some funds to continue this development.
Alexey Lyashenko: However, these are bad news.
Alexey Lyashenko: and then just to
Alexey Lyashenko: good news is that most tasks are on Schedule
Alexey Lyashenko: A
Alexey Lyashenko: to deliver the tiles to start producing tiles
Alexey Lyashenko: in August.
Alexey Lyashenko: And as I mentioned, yeah, we've we've been we've made a pretty good progress
Alexey Lyashenko: in in the, in, the, in, in, in the in the recent, in the recent months. and we are continuing.
Alexey Lyashenko: developing nature ppds and
Alexey Lyashenko: producing prototypes for testing.
Alexey Lyashenko: So this is this is about it.
Alexey Lyashenko: I think it's now
Alexey Lyashenko: time of questions.
Junqi Xie: questions, anyway on. And so
Junqi Xie: so.
Junqi Xie: Alex. And that's it. I have a small question here is, how do you calculate the percentage? So it's based on your timeline?
The percentage calculations is pretty
Alexey Lyashenko: straightforward. So basically
Alexey Lyashenko: percentage of complete on the amount of sub tasks that were that are completed
Junqi Xie: by the by now.
Junqi Xie: Sure, sure. Okay, you I saw you have hands on you, please.
Joe Schwiening (GSI): Yeah, thanks. Thanks. I would say. I was just wondering. I mean the the the 2 activities, and the
Joe Schwiening (GSI): that what's the end that you had on the red shift of the quantum efficiency and the changing of the gaps. Could you remind me what's driving that? And from from the point of view of dirt. I I certainly
Joe Schwiening (GSI): i'm not in favor of different quantum efficiency, although I don't know if it would be bad for us either. I don't know that
Alexey Lyashenko: it's not about Dirk. It's it's it's it's about some other some other applications that Alexander mentioned.
Joe Schwiening (GSI): Yeah, I mean, I guess I mean it's it's as much a question for for Alexander. I guess also, because I think from the P. Of Rich in the beginning there was an idea to shift the
Joe Schwiening (GSI): quantum efficiency. So you reduce the yeah chromatic term, I suppose right. But of course you're taking away photons from the dirk when you do that, and the other is, if you increase the gap between the ncps, don't you also. Then increase the
Alexey Lyashenko: distribution of your photoelectron amplification, charge onto multiple holds and the second layer. Then we we created the free period. In the end.
Alexey Lyashenko: Would you increase the gap?
Alexey Lyashenko: We added the gap between themcp because there was no gap in the right. So you go from 0 to to a millimetre. Right? Yes, yes; but it doesn't mean that your your your charge plot now spreads over more holes on the second right. This actually helps with the high rate capabilities.
Alexey Lyashenko: because when they are back to back
Alexey Lyashenko: the the
Alexey Lyashenko: so, the the the the charge cloud is not distributed
Alexey Lyashenko: a mom
Alexey Lyashenko: that many holes, so the
Alexey Lyashenko: high rate capabilities are limited. So with the gapped Mcps. The charge cloud as it comes from the as it. The transfers from entry Mcp. To the X and Cp. Are: this is distributed across more holes, and one can
Alexey Lyashenko: inject more charge into the exit Mcp. And does increase in the rate capabilities.
Joe Schwiening (GSI): Yeah, I I I fully appreciate it, just thinking that it does add other things that have a potential negative effect of dark.
Junqi Xie: Just have to keep that in mind as well. You here is this: I probably can't add on so currently the the the version is that there's no they can. You cannot virus the voltage of a control, the the Mcp. Was it individually because there is no contact in the middle.
Junqi Xie: So the Mcp is patching attention each other. So they basically add another lay and another spaces there, so that you can buy this voltage.
Junqi Xie: The 2 Mcp. To get to the optimal
Junqi Xie: optimal once the operation mode.
Joe Schwiening (GSI): Yeah, just we have to keep all this track of all these things when we do our our testing. Okay, thanks. Thanks.
craig: Yeah, I had well related question. I guess on your slide, though, I guess. Yeah, for the method.
craig: I mean, it's actually, as you pointed out. It looks very encouraging to see the the the flat region there are going out to about 450, but the
craig: but the value there is about. I mentioned that here it's the is not yet optimized. That's that is true.
craig: Yeah. So so my question is, what what what we can you actually do. You'd like to raise that like a factor of 2? I mean, what what can you do to to to do that? Accomplish that factor, too.
craig: composition or
craig: W. What? What? What things can you change to make it the increase so much
Alexey Lyashenko: first, so
Alexey Lyashenko: so the this for the cadence has not been done with the optimal a antimony, the layer more. As for this
Alexey Lyashenko: for the current, so we will optimize that
Alexey Lyashenko: then the composition, and also the temperature.
Alexey Lyashenko: the deposition temperature can also be optimized.
Alexey Lyashenko: because, for instance, we the for the card with the sodium, potassium, and I. In the very beginning we would. We would only able to achieve about 20%, no more.
Alexey Lyashenko: But with the further optimization of the temperatures, deposition, temperatures as well as the position reads. we were able to achieve some 30%
Alexey Lyashenko: with a Sudo but us. So I think, with the in a couple of more trials
Alexey Lyashenko: we will try to optimize the temperature oil. Well. a selected, a correct deposition temperature and see what maximum quantum efficiency we can achieve with this for the method.
Alexey Lyashenko: So if, for instance, if you can achieve 30%. If this rubidium base for the Canada, then it's fine. But if not.
Alexey Lyashenko: well, we can. We can always
Alexey Lyashenko: stick to the sodium, potassium and tum, and I for the
craig: and my question was whether you had enough, if you first saw enough things to change to achieve essentially a factor, 2, which is quite a step higher
Alexey Lyashenko: to to just to see, as you can see here, this for this quantum efficiency. Here
Alexey Lyashenko: it was measured E. While the photograph is still hot. You can see the temperature. Actually, it's a it's a deposition temperature.
Alexey Lyashenko: So as the photograph that cools down
Alexey Lyashenko: the quantum efficiency increases. actually we we've sealed one tile with the rubidium for the credit, and the quantum efficiency is about 20%.
Alexey Lyashenko: And, for instance, for this, for the cut, the the quantum quantum efficiency went up to 28%. So it's actually as before the cut. It cools down. The quantum efficiency goes up.
Alexey Lyashenko: So we we are now already at 20%, with rubidium for the cavity. and at 30% with a potassium with a sodium for the C.
Alexey Lyashenko: So it's not a factor of 2. It's like a 30% increase. Yeah. But
craig: okay, okay, thanks.
Junqi Xie: Okay. So Sylvia, go ahead.
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): Yes, thank you. I have.
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): My question is once more about this photo-catholic matter, or better than a question. It is a comment.
Alexey Lyashenko: Now these studies are very interesting.
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): but from the point of view of groups that can became users in short time.
Alexey Lyashenko: 2 years are short time for development.
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): Something which is very, very important is reproducibility
Alexey Lyashenko: 3 years
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): so.
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): and that reproducibility by the photo itself. And when the photo it's in search in the detector, which it's multi-place multiplication status. So
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): I would like to
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): invite you also to to keep this aspect of reproducibility as one of the major
Alexey Lyashenko: Go it.
Alexey Lyashenko: Yes, thanks, Sylvia so. And regarding reproducibility
Alexey Lyashenko: so for
Alexey Lyashenko: sodium.
Alexey Lyashenko: the the recent 6 styles for
Alexey Lyashenko: at least 5 6 tiles. They all had quantum efficiency, almost 30% average.
Alexey Lyashenko: So this for the C. That is very reproducible. So I mean the the last failure
Alexey Lyashenko: which fairly are calling like for the cottage, which is 20% or so.
Alexey Lyashenko: I don't remember when it, when when it was like, maybe 6 or so. Well, it it occurs once in a while, but
Alexey Lyashenko: most like 90 or 80% of tiles have quantum efficiency of 30 at 365 for the potassium
Alexey Lyashenko: for sodium, potassium, and timo night for the covet.
Alexey Lyashenko: So I think reproducibility for this type of photograph is pretty good for the other for the C. That the rubidium world still in the developmental stage.
Alexey Lyashenko: so we can't really say about reproducibility. But, however.
Alexey Lyashenko: it is done more or less in the same fashion as the other one.
Alexey Lyashenko: So I think, once the process is established, it will be quite reproducible.
Alexey Lyashenko: so I mean, I cannot. It's just a hand waving right now. But we've proven reproducible reproducibility with sodium waste for the cut. and I would believe that you can prove reproducibility with the other photograph as well.
Junqi Xie: Okay. All right, Alexander.
Alexander Kiselev: Yes, I sure to reply to what Joe was asking. So the original idea of, or proposal to shift the the Qe. Spectrum to green to to blue.
Alexander Kiselev: It was for applications which
Alexey Lyashenko: which use a graphic filter with 5 wavelengths cut off.
Alexander Kiselev: So in particular in the in amorage. The Frennel lance is a filter at 3 50.
Alexander Kiselev: So essentially everything you all 3 is, and in this sense, of course, it it is perfectly appropriate to try to
Alexander Kiselev: shift the call back from to the right. So. But you are absolutely right that neither for the work or in principle for Pierre Fridge. This is needed.
Alexander Kiselev: and therefore I would say that drastic changes in
Alexander Kiselev: autoc methods manufacturing process.
Alexander Kiselev: we probably should should put on hold. I would say so I I agree with Sig. There we should concentrate on
Alexander Kiselev: stability of
Alexander Kiselev: of existing and for the kinds of manufacturing.
Junqi Xie: Okay. all right. So I think we do have more questions. So it's
Junqi Xie: time. 9, 42 already. Okay. So let's go to the next talk.
Junqi Xie: I'm here.
Mark Popecki: It says you cannot share your screen. All the other participant is sharing.
Junqi Xie: Okay.
Junqi Xie: It's.
Joe Schwiening (GSI): I'm: actually still feeling. Yeah.
Junqi Xie: you can stop your sharing. Yeah, there we go.
Junqi Xie: Mark, Go ahead.
Mark Popecki: Can you see the screen.
Junqi Xie: I didn't know.
Joe Schwiening (GSI): so I I don't see if you have screen
Mark Popecki: you. Don't
Joe Schwiening (GSI): You're not sharing yet.
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): Okay, let me. Just
Mark Popecki: yeah, let me let me just share my whole screen. Now.
Junqi Xie: this is here that
Mark Popecki: yeah, it says, I get an error message. So I have this presentation that is
Junqi Xie: uploaded. So I wonder if you could?
Mark Popecki: I slides?
Junqi Xie: Let me.
Mark Popecki: Okay.
Mark Popecki: Yeah. You can see them now Go ahead. Okay, Great thanks. So i'll be talking about magnetic field testing which is conducted most recently here in February
Mark Popecki: and I and and
Mark Popecki: the the data analysis is still in progress. But i'll i'll talk about the mostly situations where the magnetic field is perpendicular to the window.
Mark Popecki: and so we can go to the next slide here.
Mark Popecki: So this photo on the right shows that the the arrangement, if you will.
Mark Popecki: and the magnet.
Mark Popecki: This is a solenoidal field, and we're changing the magnetic field strength by moving that L. I. Pd. In its aluminum dark box in toward the center of the board. There
Mark Popecki: and then we measure the magnetic field at the front and back of the device with that Gauss meter.
Mark Popecki: and we we record that you can see there's a yellow fiber going into the
Mark Popecki: luminum cover. and that is ultimately directed into approximately where i'm showing this yellow circle.
Mark Popecki: and this particular La Ppd. Is a. L. A. Pd. 89, which we tested last a April.
Mark Popecki: but we had in here L. A p 144, and also by Hr. Ppd. 6 this time.
Mark Popecki: And and so the magnetic field we could actually operate up to a little over 2 Tesla.
Mark Popecki: alright. and we can also tip this device.
Mark Popecki: You can see there's an axle running across laterally. It's like a brass axle with this a handle on the right side. So we're able to tip the the device and put it into index tolls. So we know we have. We're at a particular angle.
Mark Popecki: and the data products that were deriving from all these measurements here, and they gain in the position, the position, resolution. also, the transit time spread. and the after pulse rate
Mark Popecki: and an estimated detection efficiency, as well as dark rates. In April of last year we were not really able to do much with darker, but in this case
Mark Popecki: we made a a more serious effort to to measure dark rates. Okay, so let's go to the next slide.
Mark Popecki: This shows the installation of the Hrp. This one is
Mark Popecki: the Anna, as he an it with the directly couple of via it, Alex. He was talking about. So these are 3 mm pixels
Mark Popecki: directly carry the charge outside.
Mark Popecki: and we used a signal board that Alexander and 20 brook made. which has an array of spring pins all around the back.
Mark Popecki: and the this little sketch over here in the left hand side shows the Ncp. Chevron orientation
Mark Popecki: of that of the device, with the high voltages coming at the top there. Okay. But now I can go to the next line.
Mark Popecki: and you can see on the right hand side the rear of hrpv 6. So you have these different arrays of spring pins
Mark Popecki: connecting to the pixel raised in the back is 30 32 by 32
Mark Popecki: 3 mm, pixels, and so we're using the or in the lower right hand corner, which has Mtx connectors, so we can easily bring out 16 lines to our
Mark Popecki: Can we, for example, here and the laser is pointing to the place where the orange arrow is. and you can see also here in that
Mark Popecki: in the lower left-hand corner. There's this illustration of these 4 by 4 array of 3 mm pixels.
Mark Popecki: and the laser
Mark Popecki: is directed to Pixel 11,
Mark Popecki: and when we tip the device you can see movement. I have the Ncp. Footprint
Mark Popecki: from 11 to 15,
Mark Popecki: 4 to 7,
Mark Popecki: and that's caused by the
Mark Popecki: Okay, so that's good for next slide.
Mark Popecki: And so here, we're looking at localization of the signal. So this only p 144 is shown in this particular page. And this one is a a glass L. A. Pd. With a 5 mm thick.
Mark Popecki: you know. and and so you get something like a
Junqi Xie: like a 12 mm full with half. Max spread of the detected signal on the very bottom.
Mark Popecki: with 25 mm pixels, and you probably know any of you have used our lapds before we have a signal board, with little transformers on the back to terminate the lines with 50.
Mark Popecki: Oh. so we don't get much ringing. and also to do a differential signal transfer from anywhere on the anode out to the edge.
Mark Popecki: and in this case we have to remove the transformers because they strong magnetic field will freeze them. Of course you're depending on the the magnetic domains and transfer over to to change, to transfer the signal.
Mark Popecki: So we had to remove them and just put shorts across, so we have a little more ring than we would normally get. But you can see here in a sketch on the left hand side we're directing the laser to Pixel G. 5,
Mark Popecki: and we saw also a small response on F. 5 and G. 6, the
Mark Popecki: the 2 neighbors and you can see over here in the this stack plot of all 16
Mark Popecki: waveforms coming out, that you see a very large signal here, and this light blue, which is G. 5, and in its neighbors the dark blue and the and the red above. And also you can see the laser trigger in the upper left hand corner.
Mark Popecki: And so these are 2 different magnetic field you can see on the right hand side. Typical pulsite is now decreased.
Mark Popecki: and, in fact, we don't really see much for the neighbors.
Mark Popecki: either because it signals more localized or because the relative pulse side and the neighbors is just playing smaller.
Mark Popecki: Okay, so let's go to the next slide.
Mark Popecki: and this is addresses the localization of the signal on Hrpb. 6. And so you can see here, this is it a field of point 0 4, Tesla.
Mark Popecki: and here's our array down the left hand corner with a yellow arrow pointing at Pixel 11, which is where the where the laser is.
Mark Popecki: and you can see on the snack time on the right hand side we see a signal here. It's about 10 millivolts on Pixel 11, and then you can see a signal on his neighbor Pixel 10.
Mark Popecki: See a small similar as well. Let's go to the next slide.
Mark Popecki: and as we increase the magnetic field strength. Never up to one, Tesla. Now you have essentially just a signal on Pixel and
Mark Popecki: 11. So it's a more localized looking signal.
Mark Popecki: And now can we go to the next slide.
Mark Popecki: Now this is a
Mark Popecki: some work that that that I try I did, which nicely illustrates this, this signal localization. So in the upper right hand corner. It's a stack plot of hits at this point. Oh, for Tesla! So this is the weakest magnetic field where the lapd or the Hr. Pd. Is the furthest from the solenoid magnet.
Mark Popecki: and you can see we're getting
Mark Popecki: gets on this pixel 11, plus somewhat on its neighbor, and then, when we now we're changing 2 things to get to this lower left hand corner illustration that I chose.
Mark Popecki: and we're changing both the angle and the magnetic field strength. So now we have 1.4, Tesla. and now we have a 15 degree to.
Mark Popecki: and you can see. The combined effect of those is that we have a more localized signal, and also the pixel that's illuminated is now different because of the tilt of the device
Mark Popecki: and the pad. Multiplicity dev also plotted here. So on the right hand side, lower right hand side, you can see the number of alright. hits with just one pixel, 2, 3, and 4, and you can see that's reduced
Mark Popecki: when you go to the stronger magnetic field and at an angle.
Mark Popecki: So the so the response of the Hr. Pd. In a strong dynamic field tends to be localized to just one pixel.
Mark Popecki: 3 mm pixel. Okay. So let's go to the next one.
Mark Popecki: So we measured dark rates in a couple of different ways, with an oscilloscope accounts, trigger crossings, but also with that
Mark Popecki: a counter and a couple of counters, and also a discriminator.
Mark Popecki: And we get actually very good agreement with those 2. The interesting feature here shown on this slide is that with the La Pd. At a point one Tesla magnetic field, we noticed a very rather sharp, surprising increase in dark rates, which then disappeared, and we went back and forth over this several times, and it was persistently
Mark Popecki: present, almost like a resonance through the feature.
Mark Popecki: Now let's go to the next slide.
Mark Popecki: and when you look at the Hr. Ppd. 6, we we don't really see that much. There's a little bit of a bump here around Point 6 tesla, but
Mark Popecki: I we don't see so much of our resonance.
Mark Popecki: The L. A. Pd. 1 44 data reproduced in the lower left hand corner, and you can see on the right hand side that dark rates for Hr. PP. 6. So in these cases, both of these cases, what we're doing is moving the device inward
Mark Popecki: with the magnetic field perpendicular to the window to stronger magnetic field.
Mark Popecki: and one thing that you can see immediately, just by looking at the direct rate. If you look, for example, at the lower left hand corner. I know it can be going 44.
Mark Popecki: This is with all the voltages fixed and constant. We see the darker the ministers are, the stronger may get it sealed, until finally they kind of disappear
Mark Popecki: at around 1.2 Tesla. And so that's telling us that the outside is also diminishing without changing the voltage.
Mark Popecki: whereas on the Hr. Ppd. 6, where it's 10 Micron Mcps, as opposed to the 20 and the La. Pd. We can see with Hrpd. 6. We get a response out to 2 Tesla for the same voltages.
Mark Popecki: the same. This platinum or right hand corner with those pink squares shows that we're
Mark Popecki: the ncps, actually tend to draw a lot of current when you get up to this point, where the field is pretty strong
Mark Popecki: and the health side is also going down.
Mark Popecki: So so the message here is that with the 10 micron the Ncp. Is the 10 microns. The responses to a stronger magnetic field is still good.
Mark Popecki: and you get the advantage of going out to a stronger magnetic field with the 10 microns as opposed to the 20.
Mark Popecki: Okay, so let's go to the next one
Mark Popecki: the dark way it's also, you know, I in the right hand corner is the applied, which probably many of you have seen from our test reports.
Mark Popecki: and we make this for all of our our devices, and we're showing here for Mcp. Voltage and photo Catholic voltage. Have a dark race
Mark Popecki: behave, and you can see, for example, here these different colors are different. Mcp. Voltages. But if you just look at one of them, let's say the blue one on the right hand plot. You can see, as you increase the photo, Catherine Voltage, the dark rates 10 to increase also. And so here in in the plot in the right. This is the only Ppd. 100 and 44 in the Earth's magnetic Field
Mark Popecki: we have dark rates something on the order of several 100 per square centimeter. and here now, at 1.6, 9 tesla in the plot. Here in the middle. all right.
Mark Popecki: the dark rates again increase with the increasing photoc method voltage. But now we're down to, you know, something like
Mark Popecki: 10 to 100 hertz per square centimeter.
Mark Popecki: So the so the dark rates are greatly diminished
Mark Popecki: when you're when you're in the
Mark Popecki: stronger magnetic field.
Mark Popecki: Okay, so let's go to the next fine.
Mark Popecki: All right. Now it turns out. Now, if and all those previous tests we were leaving the voltages alone. If we're increasing the photo, Catherine, both agenda
Mark Popecki: on the most recent one, where you could see the dark rates increasing, but overall they're still fairly low.
Mark Popecki: and here we have
Mark Popecki: a plot that shows what happens if you maintain the same game.
Mark Popecki: And so you change the Mcp voltage as you get into a stronger magnetic field to maintain the same game. So both of these plots on the right hand side, once for the lap. Pd. And once for the Hr. Ppd.
Mark Popecki: On the horizontal axis, you see the magnetic field string
Mark Popecki: running from something like 1 point 5 to 2.1,
Mark Popecki: and what we're showing is what happens to the dark rates. Now, if you maintain the same gain by increasing the Mcp. Voltage.
Mark Popecki: how the dark rates go up when the magnetic field is stronger, and because you're increasing the Amcp. Voltage that dark rates are going up a little bit.
Mark Popecki: So in the L. A. P. And the dark rates. There's something here like 2 to 7 hertz per square centimeter, only on the Hrp. They are considerably hired.
Mark Popecki: and the Hrpd 6, I would say, is a character rich device.
Mark Popecki: Ultimately we would expect that dark rates for the Hrpd. 6 to be similar to the lap. Pd. Is. The Lapd is a much more mature internal design than the Hrp.
Mark Popecki: But both of them show this trend, that if you're maintaining the same game
Mark Popecki: by increasing the voltage, and you go into a stronger magnetic field. The rates do go up, but in the case of the lap, Pd: they're still pretty modest.
Mark Popecki: Okay, so let's go to the next one.
Mark Popecki: Now we turn to gain versus the magnetic field strength, and you can see over here on the right magnetic field is increasing on the horizontal axis, and this is the result of the test where we have that field perpendicular to the window, and we're moving the device in toward the
Mark Popecki: for the and
Mark Popecki: and you can see the the gain starts out fairly high there and drops down to the high. 10 to the one is 5,
Mark Popecki: all right.
Mark Popecki: Range right around 1.2 test line. This is without changing any
Mark Popecki: voltages in the lower left hand you can see in blue. Yeah, you see this pixel, G 5, and it in the yellow and the green, 2 of its neighbors.
Mark Popecki: and and what we're showing here is the total charge which which gives you kind of a combination of the plurality of the pulses, as well as that
Mark Popecki: one of charged with calls.
Mark Popecki: and you can see a kind of a similar feature that I'm. G. 5.
Mark Popecki: You can see the game diminishes at the 1.2 Tesla, without changing the Icp voltage.
Mark Popecki: and they should point out here that actually one thing there was very pleased to see is with with Lepd, 144. You were able to go to a 100 volts on the phone to Catherine all the time
Mark Popecki: and change the voltage into Google to tell the way up to 1,275 volts per Cp. Which is extraordinarily high.
Mark Popecki: and the the currents were very, very stable in the only Dp. And this
Mark Popecki: this structure is going to be migrated over to the both types of the
Mark Popecki: alright, so let's go to the next one
Junqi Xie: mark. We are like a lack of time source.
Junqi Xie: You need this.
Mark Popecki: So so this one shows similar results for the Hr. Ppd. And you can see that the
Mark Popecki: it goes out here again. It's something like 2 Tesla, as we saw before Alright, let's go to the next slide.
Mark Popecki: and these are pulse height distributions so you can see that
Mark Popecki: in the upper left hand corner with the ltp, you get a a sort of a bump there, somewhat separated from the shoulder. But as you go out to stronger dynamic fields, you're looking mostly at a following pulsite distribution
Mark Popecki: without increasing the Ancp voltage. Okay, let's carry on
Mark Popecki: here. Gain versus a photo cathode voltage. Actually, you can see
Mark Popecki: the gaming increase not only in the Mt. But but also with the photo Catholic voltage, and you can see in the left-hand plot with Hrp. And that we kind of rather quickly get to
Mark Popecki: a limit. Start saturating, and this is principally a result of the Mtps being right next to each of you.
Mark Popecki: because you don't get the charge spread on it today.
Mark Popecki: multiple and micro channels of the second. Mcp. Okay, let's carry on
Mark Popecki: position. Yeah. For its position. Resolution. You know we we lock in here, and Pixel G 5 on the like Ppd. 100 forty- and then maybe because the amplitudes are getting smaller even.
Mark Popecki: and the neighbors are also getting smaller or the position. The Mcp spot is getting more and localized. But we did see this interesting trend for the
Mark Popecki: position resolution to improve as we. I went to a stronger magnetic field. persistent trend. Okay, let's go through the next one.
Mark Popecki: and this is a measure of detection efficiency. This is my last data slide here.
Mark Popecki: And so here, what we're doing is we're
Mark Popecki: we count how many laser laser firings we have in a in a data collection file.
Mark Popecki: And then how many times did the device respond? And so you can see in the top 5 Hrpd. 6. So we're starting out of something like 18, and then you can see the response rate dropping off. You can go to a stronger magnetic field.
Mark Popecki: and similarly for lapd 144 in this case, without changing any
Mark Popecki: any Cp or a photo captured voltages. Okay, let's go. To next.
Mark Popecki: Yeah. So in the summary here they both did actually rather well
Mark Popecki: at the magnet.
Mark Popecki: Dark rates are fairly low. The Mcp. Pulses are very localized on the Hr. Ppd. Away into the
Mark Popecki: small gaps in there between the and and it, and also the
Mark Popecki: pixels, bringing the signal directly outside. and go to the next slide here
Mark Popecki: and and these are next steps, and so now we'll look at. We'll look more at
Mark Popecki: the cases where we are turning
Mark Popecki: the device. We have the magnetic field
Mark Popecki: at an angle to the window, which is not perpendicular.
Mark Popecki: And also this includes the special cases which will spend more time with where i'm interested to see. And I will finish processing time, resolution data.
Mark Popecki: and then fabricate improved Hrpds. And I should say that
Mark Popecki: you know one thing that we noticed with the Hr. Ppd. At the magnet is.
Mark Popecki: and we went to very high voltages. We would get this onset of a certain electron emissions storm between the scp and the photo. Catherine
Mark Popecki: and and Alexi
Mark Popecki: has taken note of this, and has made a change in the clamping mechanism at the top
Mark Popecki: of the Mcp. Stack, to make it more like the La Pd. Because that seems to be responsible for the electronic mission.
Mark Popecki: And then the other thing that is Lexi mentioned, we'll be putting a gap between the Mcs, which will give us more headroom and more again. And that'll be very important
Mark Popecki: when you're trying to go to the stronger magnetic field, or at very large angles.
Mark Popecki: Okay, so that's all
Junqi Xie: all right.
Junqi Xie: The questions. See?
Junqi Xie: I did. You see, anyone has a question here, so
Junqi Xie: so if anyone wants to ask later, that's you can go ahead. Yeah, I'm sorry. It was too late hearing out, though, how to raise my head when do you imagine is the next? It might be a test with the
Mark Popecki: I we we we had scheduled these 2 under the auspices of the
Mark Popecki: internal money at the available at Argon.
Mark Popecki: which Jin she can describe, but also under the Hrp. H. Or Ppd. Sbi are, which is expiring in May, and so at the moment we don't have more test funded under any spi
Mark Popecki: funding, so we do another one.
Mark Popecki: It would have to be funded by someone else, and I I think that's certainly a possibility. Also.
Mark Popecki: Vincenzo, at the inn, and is planning to do magnetic field testing, I think, in Padua.
Mark Popecki: and so that'll be another opportunity to do magnetic field testing as well
Mark Popecki: in a fairly near future. I should say
Junqi Xie: something here. So basically the next one we will do will be when they have the final version of the X. Rpbd. That can be suitable for the Pf. Reach. And then we will just to have the final one test here, because basically from our experience it should be working.
Junqi Xie: buying with the my middle field for the Mcdonald's. So it's just a validation
Junqi Xie: as the
Junqi Xie: so, making sure that it's it 40 works, and that's should be the final one for us.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: It's much saved in in Italy. We are planning to make that the test with the
in May, June, within a
Vincenzo Vagnoni: with the field up to 3. Tesla.
Junqi Xie: Yeah.
Junqi Xie: Okay. All right, let's move to the next speaker. So we catch up the time.
Junqi Xie: That's Linda. You may share your screen.
Alexander Kiselev: Yes, i'm trying.
Junqi Xie: Yes, good.
Junqi Xie: I can see your screen right. Just go ahead.
Alexander Kiselev: Okay, Thank you. So I will be talking about Hrpds for epic tyrannical detectors
Alexander Kiselev: survey. I Already I gave you a hint that
Alexander Kiselev: this is this is going to be a second use case after any. So now let me go into into more details.
Alexander Kiselev: so the talk will consist of 2 different parts. So I mean first half I will mostly focus on
Alexander Kiselev: on the eic and the
Alexander Kiselev: the Hrpds, and essentially as part of a physics detector; and in the second part of the talk I will report on the work which we were doing with income colleagues and Tedra
Alexander Kiselev: on trying to build hopefully a better
Alexander Kiselev: interface to these a couple things I
Alexander Kiselev: so electron I and Collider at Brookhaven. So if somebody does not know. So it's a new exciting project
Alexander Kiselev: which actually construction is expected to start in 2 years from now. So it's coming
Alexander Kiselev: coming online quickly. And so the so the basic idea is to reuse one of the Rick Hadron rings
Alexander Kiselev: and build the electron injector and electron storage ring from scratch.
Alexander Kiselev: and then the project includes one general purpose detector.
Alexander Kiselev: which will be sitting right here in IP 6.
Alexander Kiselev: So it is. Electron proton beams, highly polarized, unpolarized. Ion beams a variable and center of mass energy and luminosity, which is up to 3 orders of magnitude higher than it used to be a terror.
Alexander Kiselev: and the science case is, it is about the origins of nuclear mass and nuclear mass and neutrons PIN
Alexander Kiselev: and saturation. So these are the 3 key questions which
Alexander Kiselev: and this project is supposed to address
Alexander Kiselev: in the whole glory of detail. These are the steps from the White Paper up to the assessment of the National Academy of Scientists Sciences report 5 years ago.
Alexander Kiselev: so the general purpose detector is called epic, and so on. Schematically it is shown here on the left hand side.
Alexander Kiselev: so we can see that it's a very compact detector with several subsystems pretty tightly packed.
Alexander Kiselev: It has almost hermetic coverage in tracking calorimetry, and pid, and so this is yet another distinction
Alexander Kiselev: as compared to hero detectors for those who work that here. So the focus of this talk will be the Id. And essentially this
Alexander Kiselev: portion of the particle Id detectors
Alexander Kiselev: possible. L. I. Pvd. Applications for you assume. So once again, this is the detector. So this is forward going reach.
Alexander Kiselev: and this is your bars
Alexander Kiselev: and the location of the backward switch detector.
Alexander Kiselev: So in principle we were, and still are, considering H. Rpds for all 3 of them
Alexander Kiselev: already with the present location of the focal plane for a DVD. Detector.
Alexander Kiselev: So it's really problematic to use. H Ipd. So lapd. Is there because of the unfortunate magnetic field orientation
Alexander Kiselev: for the backward reach. It is in green just because, as of November, which was past our previous workshop. Lapds became a baseline photo sensor for the to rank of detector in the sandcap.
Alexander Kiselev: The benefit here of using Hrpds as compared to Silicon Pms would be a low dark noise and high resolution, timing capability
Alexander Kiselev: for dork. It is not yet a sensor of choice, and so it's in yellow if it is selected eventually, so, then it is supposed to be, and the main reason would be that it is.
Alexander Kiselev: and this solution is much more cost-efficient as compared to other npmt
Alexander Kiselev: and the layout you can see. So this is the jerk with total up to 72 HIV Pds total. So these are in red are the focal plants.
Alexander Kiselev: and for Pf. Reach in particular. So this is one of the implementations of the backward bridge detector, so it will be 68 Hrpd's total.
Alexander Kiselev: so you can safely ignore the notation here, but just pay attention to the layout of the sensor planes. So each square here is a single in Turkey ped.
Alexander Kiselev: The other important thing to notice is that for Dirk, and this is what juror indicated as well.
Alexander Kiselev: Event hit. Multiplicity on the event level is of a concern so coupons in can be can be high.
Alexander Kiselev: So a single sensor like this would see the several dozens of photons
Alexander Kiselev: chat sharing in this case, and large clusters in capacitively coupled implementation would be
Alexander Kiselev: not not a reasonable choice.
Alexander Kiselev: so the only choice for jerk would be DC. Coupled sensors with very small charge spread.
Alexander Kiselev: and mark showed that in the magnetic field which we expect
Alexander Kiselev: chat spread will be small. So that's why it is almost mandatory that backward reach should also use decoupled sensors just to
Alexander Kiselev: and minimize the remaining car. Indeed.
and before the actual production can start.
Alexander Kiselev: so the
presently I anticipated backward, which configuration for this end tab is a proximity focusing reach.
Alexander Kiselev: You can see the sizes radius half a meter long.
Alexander Kiselev: What is essential for this talk is again so this sensor plane.
Alexander Kiselev: which are H. Rpds. and we will be using 120 mm from size, which is standard, a little bit optimized geometry.
Alexander Kiselev: So it this surface will be tiled with as many more gap as possible to increase the geometric efficiency. and it will be a regular reach with a particular type and an open vessel design.
Alexander Kiselev: and at present it's collaboration of 11 institutions.
Alexander Kiselev: So until now we have
Alexander Kiselev: a Cdr version
Alexander Kiselev: which was just released to the collaboration.
We are expecting
Alexander Kiselev: the final solution, a final decision to become a baseline detector and for for for epic. And once again, so it's classical proximity focusing reach with pretty uniform performance and the whole acceptance.
Alexander Kiselev: and it will be hopefully the first.
Alexander Kiselev: the charunk of detector of this type, which would combine high resolution imaging capability with high resolution timing.
Alexander Kiselev: So this is what several other groups around the world not working on typically with Silicon, Pm.
Alexander Kiselev: And the implementation. So this would be with Hrp.
Alexander Kiselev: And here are the examples you know of performance. At about 7 Gv. We see panc and separation
Alexander Kiselev: So multiple overlapping rings with reflections and and simulations show that
Alexander Kiselev: you know the detector safely achieves 7 to 9 Jvm. Momentum range that above 3 signals operation level
Alexander Kiselev: there is a substantial
Alexander Kiselev: R. And D. Ongoing, which is. which is covered by the project detector, Md. System. So there are several questions which need to be addressed before C 3, so they are recognized, and
Alexander Kiselev: I probably should not go through the whole list. But you can see that it is Pd. Which we still don't know reliably. It is geometric form factor optimization so pretty much along the lines of what Alex issued in his in his talk.
Alexander Kiselev: and then various types of and verification of the performance, features which we know are there separately, so they will.
Alexander Kiselev: and several beam tests and like measurements which we're focusing on in particular feature of for these sensors. At some point we need to verify that everything can be achieved at once, and the parameters are reproducible.
Alexander Kiselev: and eventually in the year from now we hope that with the prototype, we just
Alexander Kiselev: verify the integrated. So in the ground performance of a detector equipped with this type of sensors.
Alexander Kiselev: we had a leadership meeting, yes, a leadership meeting with income in January
Alexander Kiselev: for the facilities door, and half a day of very fruitful discussions.
Alexander Kiselev: As a result of this visit we we are preparing a staged contract. so in its present shape it will be running for 12 months.
Alexander Kiselev: So the first half is those percentages which Alexey showed because income is working on implementing the Wish list already now before
Alexander Kiselev: the contract is signed. and there were many details given by Alexa already
Alexander Kiselev: in this first stage, which will around till September.
Alexander Kiselev: So the you know questions like geometric form factor and the connectivity, so they should be addressed, and we
Alexander Kiselev: must come up with a decision or
Alexander Kiselev: a few decisions.
Alexander Kiselev: What will be the configuration of this first 5? Excuse me this first 5 tiles.
Alexander Kiselev: so the production of these first 5 tiles will be phase 2 up to February next year.
Alexander Kiselev: and then there will be what we call phase 3 bench tests and be test evaluation. And with the present e. I see timing. So all this is supposed to be happening well before on CD. 2,
Alexander Kiselev: and
Alexander Kiselev: we hope that we are still on time, so to speak
Alexander Kiselev: in the winter optionally, we will probably have a short beam tested formula. If there is a suspicion, let's say that lab measurements are not enough
Alexander Kiselev: to quantify the performance, and then, as I mentioned already, in a year from now there will be a full. Be your first brother that tested from my lab.
Alexander Kiselev: So now let me go to the second half of the talk about Hrpg integration. So this is the ongoing field activity, I would say.
Alexander Kiselev: The previous section was mostly simulations. I remind those to those who are attended a previous workshop that we tried
Alexander Kiselev: one option of integration of these sensors. So again we're talking about DC. Coupled ones.
Alexander Kiselev: So where there is no induced signal. So you really need to connect every pixel to
Alexander Kiselev: to the electronics channel by by wire, so to speak.
Alexander Kiselev: So the first option which we tried was using Polynomials
Alexander Kiselev: particular type of this poker pins with small law per PIN,
Alexander Kiselev: which is still substantial. Actually
Alexander Kiselev: a
Alexander Kiselev: It was a clear understanding. But then that this can be a a quick, temporary option. But as a final solution. it is not really suitable, because this soldering is essentially happening by hand at the PCB shop, and if you want to manufacture 100 tiles.
Alexander Kiselev: it's probably not really a good idea.
Alexander Kiselev: So this option was actually implemented, and you saw in the presentation given by Mark, that
Alexander Kiselev: Hr. Ipd. Packed this way was used in Argon for the magnetic field tests
Alexander Kiselev: home. This packaging seems also be suitable for time of light positron emission, tomography, prototype. So actually, this breakdown of components is shown here.
Alexander Kiselev: So where, instead of so Marcos investigating particular spot like this corner for by 4 pixels.
Alexander Kiselev: So in case of
Alexander Kiselev: that tough PET application, so we will be using the central portion, now 256 pixels
Alexander Kiselev: connected to the Rs. For electronics.
Alexander Kiselev: I should also mention that we have spare Pcbs, and of course, drawings can be shared with other groups. If there is any interest.
Alexander Kiselev: by the way, these Tcbs can be also used for.
Alexander Kiselev: and a capacity of the coupled tiles. I believe
Alexander Kiselev: so. Now I see considerations. So, of course, there is a standard requirement list for this type of detector, so we want very high and timing resolution which would be, which would match the
Alexander Kiselev: a single photon, and in particular multiple multi- and a timing resolution of of the hrpds. So we want to be able to work
Alexander Kiselev: in a particular range of collected charge, which would allow one to stay comfortably
Alexander Kiselev: within the small amplification, small gain.
Alexander Kiselev: in order to increase tile lifetime.
Alexander Kiselev: So then we think, and we just confirm this recently that in the configuration, if you have in mind, contrary to silicon Pms, for instance.
Alexander Kiselev: so we can achieve the darker capacitance, this
Alexander Kiselev: and CD. Below Tampica Farad. So then it becomes a requirement, and the high channel, density and small power and dissipation is, of course, also one of the requirements.
Alexander Kiselev: So we were considering 2 options, so one of them was back then, the baseline so we form a high-performance waveform digitizer. and it would still be my favorite, I would say. But
Alexander Kiselev: we time it became clear that
a more practical solution can be so. It can be
Alexander Kiselev: time of arrival, slash time of a threshold solution, and one of them is in particular this Eac rock
Alexander Kiselev: basic by Omega group. There are the number of pros and cons, and one can argue whether any of them is a show, stop or not.
Alexander Kiselev: But whatever is so, these 2 items, which are highlighted in green were probably the decisive ones. So we
Alexander Kiselev: eventually realize that it's. If you have a concrete implementation in mind in particular, for
Alexander Kiselev: detective like we were promoting the the P. For so the group was promoting.
Alexander Kiselev: We realized that it's. It would be a much easier path if we follow basic which is already supported by the project.
Alexander Kiselev: and besides this, a similar asic from the same family is already available. Now. as a starting point, so we can try to integrate this particular Agc Rock 3,
Alexander Kiselev: which is a modification for silicon detectors with a very low expected charge.
Alexander Kiselev: We can expect it to be available even for the beam test if we really work hard.
Alexander Kiselev: So some of the features I probably should not stop here. So one of the important features is that the time of a threshold measurement which is typically criticized for this type of asics will be replaced by
Alexander Kiselev: by an AD. C in the IC Rock. So the Zeros generation, which is 4 by 4 pixels, exists already. And here we can see the breakdown of components. So it's basically a
Alexander Kiselev: one can think of this Asic family as a collection of labour blots which can be
Alexander Kiselev: and put together, meeting the requirements of particular application.
Alexander Kiselev: So, in particular, a Gc. Rock, for instance, will be the asik of choice for
Alexander Kiselev: the for you know the hydronic or the IC.
Alexander Kiselev: And I think on this slide yes, and the icy rock will be developed for Acl guts, anyway.
Alexander Kiselev: and potentially it can become available even in 1,000 channel configuration. So we had a meeting of Ncpmp. Experts detect our experts and the designers.
Alexander Kiselev: you can follow the link here. And the conclusion is that this Asic in general meets the overall requirements.
Alexander Kiselev: So for charges which we can collect with a very moderate gain. So if one recalculates this game, 10 to the fifths.
Alexander Kiselev: you will be sitting somewhere in dozens of them to go home range. and one can see that this Asic, which has built in amplification, already allows one to achieve.
Alexander Kiselev: You know, sub 22 a second resolution. So it's not Exactly. So. This
is based on altero.
Alexander Kiselev: the family estimate. But this is what we expect.
Junqi Xie: Alexander. We are run out of time.
Junqi Xie: all right.
Junqi Xie: you see. Yes.
Okay.
Alexander Kiselev: So we changed in the meantime the integration model. So from vertical integration and the back plane, which was anticipated for waveform digitizer. So it is now flat, so
Alexander Kiselev: integration model. so as interconnect. And this is second attempt. We are considering some tech connection interposers
Alexander Kiselev: so, and the stack is shown here. So the interposer is in this in the middle. So this is your annual base plate and a PCB. With directly mounted asics. So option number 3. If, for whatever reason this doesn't work will be a conductive epoxy, like
Alexander Kiselev: other manufacturers, do this, as you know.
Alexander Kiselev: a small size prototype was manufactured by Tech, from and it was tested at income, so several respects so in particular for flatness.
Alexander Kiselev: It was confirmed on the level of a few dozens of microns and vacuum titles.
Alexander Kiselev: It was also confirmed electrically that there are no bad surprises, so to speak.
Alexander Kiselev: So we verified that actually, this is data by mark.
Alexander Kiselev: So we verified that if one passes a signal through this trace, which is embedded in this type.
Alexander Kiselev: and compares it against the same signal. same pulse which goes into the oscilloscope or electronics and abstracted.
Alexander Kiselev: So there is a little bit of degradation of the leading edge, one can see. But
Alexander Kiselev: first this trace is 5 cm, and we are not going to have anything like that long.
Alexander Kiselev: and then the slow rate degradation is pretty small outside.
Alexander Kiselev: So what is happening next? Is we are going to build a full-scale full-size am at base plate.
Alexander Kiselev: so which will have interface to 16 Of these injured posers which will implement already 75% open area ratio. and we tend to have this interface interchangeable between final version. And
Alexander Kiselev: if you see rock version for for the test bam and simple connectivity to the subset of Mcx connectors or such.
Alexander Kiselev: So I believe this is my last slide. So just to reiterate. So the idea is that
Alexander Kiselev: a base plate
Alexander Kiselev: of the sensor becomes actually a ceramic PC. View with routing, which looks like a spider like this. which essentially compresses a particular 8 by 8 pixel field
Alexander Kiselev: into something which is, which has pixelation of the order of
Alexander Kiselev: the Asics expect. So is this a rock in particular shown here.
Alexander Kiselev: and this would hopefully allow a more economic integration.
Alexander Kiselev: Jones King.
Alexander Kiselev: As I mentioned already, so this full-scale base plate is now being built by tech from
Alexander Kiselev: so I will not be that optimistic as Alexis, saying that we are at 50% now, because surprises are still possible.
Alexander Kiselev: But we are making progress towards the the final
Alexander Kiselev: configuration which will be used to build these first 5, E, I. C. T. Questions, please.
Junqi Xie: Christians.
Junqi Xie: Okay.
Junqi Xie: If not, then I didn't see anyone. Okay, let's move on to the next slide next to talk. So
Junqi Xie: my feel.
Junqi Xie: Yes, I'm here. Yes, go ahead. Perfect.
Mikhail Osipenko: Okay. I will talk about a Ppg test team that we had in there in 2,022 in October.
Mikhail Osipenko: Here you can see the list of people that participated in in this measurement.
Mikhail Osipenko: This a measurement actually was planned because in in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in tests of, we noticed that that the signal was had a very good shape, a very fast rice time, and a very high signal to noise or issue, and ideally, from the point of view of the noise. Only this could allow a a resolution of, we estimated about
Mikhail Osipenko: about 14 picoseconds. This, of course, doesn't take into account any transition times spread, or
any other device related uncertainty. But they say this is an ideal limit that could in principle be reached. So we optimize the our set up at Cern to keep all other uncertainties below 10 picoseconds
Mikhail Osipenko: to be inside this video. So these slides are from previous presentation of Deb. On the on the second, a Ppgla workshop. Here you can see the the experimental hole in t 10 ari at the same Ps. In first the the beam coming from the screen is going first on the D. Reach prototype, and our
the dark box with a Ppd. Was a sitting behind that, just behind this prototype and close to the wall.
Mikhail Osipenko: Okay, this is the next slide with the details of the set up. The setup was operated in a back world configuration, in a sense that in a Ppd. Was looking downstream the the had runs with different energies from 4 to 12 Gv. Were crossing, and these radiator staying behind the the La People
Mikhail Osipenko: and the backward that it reflected light was measured in the like Pd. Next to Radiator we had the B Monitor, which was used as a 3 year, and after being monitor, we had the a very fast hammer up to Mt.
Mikhail Osipenko: And that was used as a time reference, for
Mikhail Osipenko: here are some details on the Monitor may do is bundle of scintillating fibers, and read out by Cpm. And hammer. Cp. That we use. This is a. You see, one centimetre diameter. Ncp: we use good characteristics in particular. Tts is was about 25, because second.
full full time have maximum. So that means that rms of these device was of the order of 10 picoseconds. And, in fact, as you can see. From this publication
Mikhail Osipenko: where this device was used, people were managed to achieve Sigma of 7 picoseconds. In the coincidence of 2 devices of of the same side of the same type. We use the La. P Pd. Number 124. It's a 20, my microm for in a Pd. With capacitively coupling redoubt
so with a a standard income a it out board with a part. The large parts of one inch
Mikhail Osipenko: size, and the signals were further amplified by a custom made in Genoa fast amplifier to G. Hertz analogue band weights
Mikhail Osipenko: that that we use to increase the signal amplitude and the the digitizer range.
Mikhail Osipenko: The bias voltage was given. Now is this a special kind, that device that allows you to chain different channels in the same chain of of of of voltages. In in this way we we. We had the very good and stable connection and the car. But by vice versa, current data acquisition system, actually.
Mikhail Osipenko: it was composed of essentially Drs 4 base, the digitizer from kind that almost everybody is using here. A. And
Mikhail Osipenko: it was connected through Vimy Controller to our Linux PC.
Mikhail Osipenko: Now we measured signals from
Mikhail Osipenko: La Ppd on the left, and also Uhhammad. So M. City on the right, and we we can immediately notice that hammer, maximum Cp signals are much faster. In fact, the rice time of these signals was a measured to be point 4 nanoseconds, which is actually unlimited by bandwidth. So the digitizer
Mikhail Osipenko: and a intrinsic he time supposed to be point 16, but La Pd. Instead, that we expected the similar rice time of point 4, again limited by the digitizer, but we measured the much almost 2 times larger rice time.
Mikhail Osipenko: So this is a one problem that we noticed from the beginning. Here you can see more details.
Mikhail Osipenko: A part of the difference between I'm. Cp. I'm. A maximum cpi. Stand that you have. You see on the left of the first peak is a. From how much? Cp.
Mikhail Osipenko: Also, among channels of the same late Pd. There was some difference in the right time of the signals
Mikhail Osipenko: of of the order of 15%. You can see here that 4 channels had a a rice time of order of point, 7 nanoseconds and couple of channels had that more than point 8;
Mikhail Osipenko: and if you look on the final resolution in terms of Sigma on the time difference between Mcp and the La Pd. Exactly these 2 channels that are have larger. Let's say it's lower right. Time
Mikhail Osipenko: had the much, much larger the with Sigma of these resolution. Moreover, I also noticed that these
Mikhail Osipenko: large rice time appeared in a nearby pods that are geometrically close together, so I don't have any an explanation for these, so we can still study this, but
this could be some parasitic capacitance in in some parts, from point of view of electronic resolution. Again, a signal to now is a ratio
Mikhail Osipenko: from these numbers from this rice time of point 7 nanoseconds, and the signal to know is ratio we supposed to reach for picoseconds a resolution in order to reach good resolution. We need to calibrate timing of these Drs for chips. The timing correction is very significant. In fact, corrections I applied, for example, kind correction
Mikhail Osipenko: reduce the weeds of the peak of by by 50 to picoseconds in quadrature
Mikhail Osipenko: the kind, the standard kind of correction that is provided on the flash memory of of these digitizer actually provided the best resolution. I reached the less than 40 picoseconds.
Mikhail Osipenko: The correction that recently was performed in Bologna by Deb. And the Chandra lead to to our broadening of these 40 picoseconds by another 40 picoseconds. And and, as you can see here, here is a comparison of sigmas
Mikhail Osipenko: of the resolution for different channels, and on the right you can see
Mikhail Osipenko: essentially a peak in one selected channel, the best channel. Let's say best Resolution Channel, where you can see that a resolution with kind correction was better, and also the position of the peak with a kind and Bologna time corrections was different. The
Mikhail Osipenko: and using Bologna Correction Peak was anticipated by about 30 picoseconds. A more more going more into details. I also, since 2 corrections are very different. The kind corrections are very small in the amplitude. They are order of of the order of one to 1, 3 picoseconds per each cell, while Bologna correction are very large, and they the has a very E strong part term, alternating pattern from minus 50, because it roughly minus 50 picoseconds.
Mikhail Osipenko: The even channels, and the plus 50 picoseconds, they all the channels. I I tried to study these, using again measure it in the in testimony, in time
selecting events where the the delay between start and the stop channel
Mikhail Osipenko: was exactly 31 sales. So all the number of sales in this way these 2, plus and minus picoseconds. They don't cancel, and I. I studied these final timing mean of final timing as a function of a trigger cell
Mikhail Osipenko: sell in the 3 just channel, and, as you can see the
Mikhail Osipenko: kind. Correction has. Some, let's say, a microscopic offsets that are not corrected.
Mikhail Osipenko: They remain, and they are of the order of let's say, 40 picoseconds.
Mikhail Osipenko: while the corrections that that they ben Shan, reproduced in Bologna they are more flat overall, but and sell by sell, they fluctuating by the same amount actually even probably even more.
Mikhail Osipenko: to improve further the timing. I also applied the amplitude corrections depending on both the An Ap Pd. Pulse, height, amplitude, and also Mcp. Pulse. Height amplitude. This was small. Correction is a fraction of because second per millivolt, and it didn't change much and residual after the correction was less than 5 picoseconds.
Mikhail Osipenko: Here you can see the final let's say, a resolution. Sigma Rms. As a function of a pulse. Height of of a Pd. Signal and pulse height of Mcp. Signal.
Mikhail Osipenko: It was almost flat in in in in as a function of Mcp signal, so the Mcp is already saturated. Probably the number of photoelectric is large, while you can clearly see one over square root of N. Behavior as a function of a le Pd pulse height, and approximately these, they see a single photoelectron ticket here is indicated by this: by this error.
and approximately you can describe this behavior as a constant term of a of 40 picoseconds, plus the let's say statistically, the government term, which is 40 picoseconds divided by square root of number for the electrons.
Mikhail Osipenko: So I go to next slide. We also studied the dependence of of of the obtained resolution on the bias voltage. In particular, we increase the bias voltage of photoc at from 50 to 100 worlds, and this gives about
Mikhail Osipenko: 10% improvement. This is the difference between black and red points increasing the difference between a voltage difference between a last Mcp. And the end of the from 200 to 300 volts
Mikhail Osipenko: provides even better improvements, the improvement almost 20%. And this is a shown by blue points here in this distribution, you see in that all points are much lower, and we also studied dependence on the gain of La Pd. As you can see for high gain. The resolution was worse. But we still need to to calibrate a low gain.
Mikhail Osipenko: a low gain data in terms of number of of photoelectrons, because we don't know yet how many photoelectron are in these points. This could be suppressed, or due to the better resolution at low gain, or due to a smaller number of
Mikhail Osipenko: for the electrons. We also checked that. Indeed, our final data was dominated by single photoelectron emission.
Mikhail Osipenko: and, as you can see, we performed the led calibrations just right after the test beam in in in Sarah.
Mikhail Osipenko: And, as you can see here led calibration which are single for the electron only because there are there. There were very few events on many triggers
Mikhail Osipenko: agree very well with distribution of a beam beam, say data from the beam.
Mikhail Osipenko: The only difference here is that to to suppress the the, the, the the across tok. we had to apply a set of cuts on the data, and the this suppression, which I called here selected heats remove these low, low amplitude signals.
Mikhail Osipenko: So the the the part of in the in the low low amplitude region is removed. The in the in the final analysis, where we actually let's say where we actually calculate the resolution, the timing resolution.
Mikhail Osipenko: the charge collection, you know, proved to be compatible with with data sheets. In fact, from data sheets we expect that 1.3 pico coulomb of a chat collection, and we measured Point 9
Mikhail Osipenko: up to point, 1.5 for a selected he so for this Black Instagram only, and the charge collection, all channels was
Mikhail Osipenko: similar, very similar. So now I i'm. Coming to conclusions, we we tested the 20 mic on for a a, a, a ppg, capacitively calculated to stand up to the standard income read out board with a one inch pods.
Mikhail Osipenko: We observed that a a single photoelectron timing rms of of of the order of 80, which can be split in
Mikhail Osipenko: constant 40 picoseconds and 40 picoseconds. Let's say statistically that even
Mikhail Osipenko: the the increase of photocattered voltage and the annual Mcp I know the voltage difference improves the resolution, but not by much 1020%. And
Mikhail Osipenko: the the let's say the the the fact that we don't understand yet is the the this a high Value of Rice time, overly Ppd. In this case, and also we had the quite large cost talk between different Paths. In in these measurements.
I'm done. Thank you very much.
Junqi Xie: Thank you. Any questions.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: Yes, I have a question. So I I didn't understand exactly what what you did with the collaboration. So
Vincenzo Vagnoni: I understand that you took data with the with the kind of calibration activated. And then in this case i'll put you applying the
Vincenzo Vagnoni: who who we applied on now on road date and calibrated data, not on top of the the the kind calibration.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: So I don't understand exactly how you do it.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: Yes, thank you. No. We we we took data without any correction, no corrections on time, no correction and amplitude, no correction, because I mean it means that you disabled the the on board? The
Mikhail Osipenko: Yes, we we. We download the the the 5 from the board, and we apply the these file offline
Mikhail Osipenko: because you you can. You can read out these values from the board.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: even with the client standard software. That is such a okay, I understand. But then I don't. I don't get out. It's possible that you get corrections for the guy and collaboration, which are just 1, 3 picoseconds, where whereas the sales and the differences which are as as large as 100 picoseconds from one, not to the other. So it's.
Mikhail Osipenko: Yeah, yes, I I agree that kind corrections are extremely different from what you you you observe. But, however, the the final result actually is better for this kind correction, and this is experimentally what I see.
Mikhail Osipenko: And and and yes, I I I don't know I I I couldn't find even. Let's say a a document, a or some scientific, not how exactly kind correction is, is is obtained. This also could help to understand things.
Mikhail Osipenko: But yeah, everything was applied. The offline. All corrections are applied offline.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: Okay, thanks.
Stefan Ritt: Sorry if I try. In this is this: is Stefan. Actually, I'm. I'm. At the developer of the Ps. 4 ship, if you don't normally, and I also later, we will talk about Ds. For collaboration. I also wrote the paper about the collaboration, and indeed the the kind time collaboration is very poor.
Stefan Ritt: and this this flat distribution is doesn't reflect the actual chip.
Stefan Ritt: So the chip, indeed, has this variations of actually even more than 50 people seconds. It's more like that's minus 100 pic a second sometimes, and some cells even have a negative it. So it's it's it's rather complicated.
Stefan Ritt: but it's very easy to make mistakes in applying the collaboration. Right. So if you read out the raw data, you always have to know exactly the stop cell, right? So they do. Always can codle, correlate. You know the physical cell versus the cell, you in your waveform, and if you do a mistake there, everything looks fine
Stefan Ritt: but the collaboration you apply. The is then screwed, and then your result is is unusable. So this is can be done very easily; but if done correctly, then you really should get down to to the because of that, as we will probably see in in in General's talk afterwards.
Mikhail Osipenko: I I I think I I I did apply a correction correctly. We have a stop sell from from the data stream. The kind
Mikhail Osipenko: kind of digitizer is writing this stop, sell in the in, in, in the in the header of of the event. We use that value.
Mikhail Osipenko: and of course, sample number to calculate the actual cell index. So but yeah, of course, there always there is always space for for mistakes. But I should say that
Mikhail Osipenko: if there would be let's say. and on correction, or some kind of offset, I would expect for random correction. I would with respect here, for example, in these distributions flat behavior.
Mikhail Osipenko: because then the the the the 3 just sale that I believe to be a trigger cell would be a random number, and and it would be completely threat instead. It's not.
Stefan Ritt: It cannot be completely random, and the way I run you. I don't know what time and this can you do? Okay. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry, Mark. You have a quick question, please.
Mark Popecki: Yeah. I just had a quick comment. The rise time of the Ncp. Pulse is going to be mostly dominated by the diameter of the micro channel, and so that when La ppd 124 was a
Mark Popecki: 20 micron device, and so that point 7, 5, nanoseconds that you measure for rise. Time is appropriate. and if you had a 10 micron. You did something more likely, for
Mark Popecki: yeah, a second tries time. And then there may also be some variation
Mark Popecki: because of the resistance of the spatial variations in the resistance of the but mostly the diameter.
Thank you.
Mikhail Osipenko: Okay, Thank you. It was very, very important. Thank you.
Junqi Xie: Still, yeah, I just okay, quick question. Please pick Common? Yes, no, very, very, very quick. It was to underline that this La Pd. That we have used
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): is not the best one of income production, and, for example, it was not possible to apply
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): higher voltages than those are mentioned by
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): Misha, and the this, contrary to a larger type that we could study in the lab. and this can also be a limiting factor for the specific results obtained at this time.
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): and I would like to thank having changed so for hospitality of young collaborators in Bologna for our time. Calibration. That's all. Thank you.
Junqi Xie: Thank you, Sylvia. Okay, let's move on to the next.
Matthew Wetstein: Sure i'll. I'll try and help us catch up on time. I don't have too long of a presentation.
Matthew Wetstein: so here let me share my slides and go to play.
Matthew Wetstein: So it's not the beginning.
Matthew Wetstein: so hi! Everyone hope it didn't change the the author the this slide that was produced by Amanda Weinstein, who is my co-lead on on the La Pds. Though I've I've modified it. The i'm i'm gonna give you a a brief update on the any experiment and our status with respect to La Pds.
Matthew Wetstein: So any stands for the accelerator, neutrino neutron interaction experiment. It exists. It's on the neutrino beam at Fermi lab known as the booster neutrino beam. Our physics goal is to measure the final state. Neutron yields from neutrino nucleus interactions.
Matthew Wetstein: but we also have a very strong and and broad technology. R. And D Mission, which is that we are a test platform for new technologies in particular, La Pds and new detection medium, like galenium, loaded water and water based Scintillator Annie was largely designed to be an application of La Pds.
Matthew Wetstein: And and and yeah, it's been a very exciting road getting to that point, and he's an international collaboration. We have about 45 collaborators from 16, including 8 non us institutions, and from 5 countries
Matthew Wetstein: just a very brief overview of our detector. It consists of a steel tank that holds 26 tons of gadolinium loaded water. We have 132 conventional pmt's, which we use to round off the coverage because we we need a lot of photo photon detection in addition to the precision. But but our our initial plan includes 5 Gen. One la Pds.
Matthew Wetstein: which are used for more precision Reconstruction. So the Pmt. Is, Give us photo, cathode coverage daily. Ppd. Give us the timing and resolution. We also have a front new on veto, which consists of overlapping layers of steel and scintillator. And you can measure me on energy based on how deep it penetrates, and the me one range detector that vetoes.
Matthew Wetstein: Oh, sorry the the the front veto! I I said it backwards. That's the new on range. Detector the front veto vetoes. Any new ones produced in the rock upstream of the detector that will enter from the outside.
Matthew Wetstein: So i'll start by talking a little bit about La Pd. Number 40,
Matthew Wetstein: so La Pd. 40 was deployed in March of 2,022. It was the first of our la Pds. It's been demonstrated with with bench tests and and oscilloscopes have a resolution of of better than than 64 picoseconds, probably the the 30 pico second resolution of the laser is included in that resolution benchmark.
Matthew Wetstein: We tested it for a very long time before final deployment, and it's now been in the detector for quite some time stable under. We've we've demonstrated stable under operation underwater. In addition to all of the electronics we've been monitoring humidity temperature and voltages
Matthew Wetstein: and the position of the La Pd. Is is determined to sub centimeter level, and one of the nice things about the way that we've designed Annie is that these lapds are removable and deployable in situ. So, in in fact, we recently wanted to check something with L. A. Pd. 40, and and during an intervention, we we lifted it up and and took a look, and everything is still looking good in there.
So Lepb 40 became the first L. A. Pd. Deployed in an experiment in the neutrino experiment
Matthew Wetstein: Getting from the test bench to a full deployed experiment, as we've mentioned in past meetings is a quite a formidable challenge. and we ran into to all kinds of challenges in in the systems integration. I'll give you a brief picture of what our system looks like. So on the surface
Matthew Wetstein: we have what is known as an anti central card, which is basically data concentrator, and it fans out the clock signals, and it serves as a communications with the electronics in the water. The acc receives both the central clock at 125 megahertz and beam spills start information from what we call the Ctc. The central trigger card, which is the heartbeat, and and to some extent brains or coordination of the entire detectors.
not just the La Pd.
Matthew Wetstein: And then it it processes and re redistributes these signals to the a/C. DC. Boards, which are in the waterproof housing in the water, or read out, boards are in the the module with the La Pd. It also receives the data back from those cards, and one a Cdc. Can handle between 2 and 4 a/C DC. Cards. The signals coming out from the water are distributed through a breakout box. That is also on the surface that basically takes our 2 high density waterproof cables
Matthew Wetstein: and separates the signals to the relevant components of the rack electronics.
Matthew Wetstein: This is what the deployment package itself looks like. The La Pd. Is packaged in a waterproof housing with an acrylic window.
Matthew Wetstein: Inside that housing we have the 2 read out boards, which are the a/C. DC. Cards which use the P. Sec. For architecture for the digitization of the signals.
Matthew Wetstein: We have a slow controls board that we call our Lv. H. V. Board, which not only powers, and and serves as a sort of a pass through for the communications, but it also integrates with all of our internal sensors; and, and, as you can see, this is a very complex system, and it it it it. It has many, many parts, and it really kind of
Matthew Wetstein: emphasizes the leap that it takes to go from tabletop testing which I've done for nearly a decade before this and and the actual deployment.
Matthew Wetstein: Some of the technical challenges that we need to work out over the last couple of years involved communications over long cables, water tightness, dealing with noise and thermal issues inside the module, and many, if not most of those are, are, are pretty well worked out the trigger and read out. So, as I said, we use these 2 Acdc cards which digitize, using the psect architecture developed at you Chicago, which is a 10 giga sample per second read out with a 25 Nanos
Matthew Wetstein: second buffer the lepds trigger asynchronously from each other. In fact, all of the detector systems are asynchronous, but they all receive and provide heartbeats and and timing to the central trigger, card, which is what we use to link them all together.
Matthew Wetstein: There's an external trigger card in our current architecture, although future upgrades will obviate the need for that, but that that external trigger card basically senses the signals coming out of the strip lines and determines whether or not to send a trigger signal onto our a/C DC. Cards.
Matthew Wetstein: and we have 40
Matthew Wetstein: megahertz times 8. The time stamping, for when the trigger signals occur, and we can fit the analog signal to obtain the exact timing within a clock cycle. We have built 2 different test facilities, first one at Iowa State, but the most of the equipment for that was now moved to Fermi Lab, where we have a dark box with a 30 pico second pulse P. Last laser, and we can characterize
Matthew Wetstein: all manner of the characteristics of the La Pds. All 3 of the deployed La Pd. Uses I'll talk about, have have been tested in this system, and the fourth is is ready to to be tested, and now i'll get to our milestones. Now this milestone hasn't changed since the last time I spoke.
Matthew Wetstein: but in the sense that we'd already deployed it when, or rather when Amanda spoke. But we in March of last year, deployed our first La Pd. And we reached the milestone of the first L. A. Pd.
Matthew Wetstein: Neutrino signals ever observed, which was a huge milestone. But the I I guess the update on L. A. Pd. 40 specifically, is that it is still operating 11 months in we're still looking at and analyzing the data and working on understanding it. Now, in the context of the full detector system which it's been integrated with, for for I'd say probably about 10 of those 11 months. Now
Matthew Wetstein: bear with me 1 s. I need to close the window. Then I can seem to close. There. We go.
Matthew Wetstein: you know. Move this out of the way.
Matthew Wetstein: Okay. So our new milestone there a a new milestone. That that's, I think equally exciting is is that a recent Phd. Thesis to come out of Annie by Michael Nielsenny, One of our collaboration in firms Germany, or sorry in in at the
Matthew Wetstein: Oh, my gosh! I'm having a senior moment on the institution i'll i'll, i'll say, at the end. H. The you on Gutenberg Institution. Working with Mickey Verm.
Matthew Wetstein: he demonstrated a first physics analysis, and this is only using one month of any data from the spring of 2,021. But it really demonstrates that we can do physics, and we have several students and postdocs now who are working on developing this analysis and applying it not only to the rest of the data from spring 2,021, but we're also starting to pull in the data from 2,022, particularly the data with the La Pd in it, and I'm. Very excited to start to see Lapvds really brought to bear on
the physics analysis.
Matthew Wetstein: Very big Milestone is that we added our second to La Pds at the end of February, income number 63 and 64, which now make Annie the first multi-lap Pd. Neutrino experiment. I don't want to oversell that we have successfully taken data with 2 of the 3, but and i'll talk about this on the next slide. We've deployed a water base liquid scintillator Volume Sandy, and we're waiting to finish the integration of these 3 after the sandy deployment, because we. We wanted to prioritize
Matthew Wetstein: data with with our one definitively commissioned La Pd. For the several weeks of of Sandy. But this work is ongoing, and and it's. It's on a good course, I think, seeing 3 lapd data is definitely in the cards in the next month or so.
Matthew Wetstein: As I mentioned, we've reached another milestone, which is that Annie has a hatch that allows you to deploy sub volumes, and we deployed a first ever volume of water-based liquid simulator called sandy reconstruction of neutrinos and water-based liquid scintillator can leverage the timing information or we can. We can really leverage the timing information using la Pds so this will be a very interesting demonstration of La Pds in a slightly different context
Matthew Wetstein: than previously. The first sandy deployment aims to study about 2 to 4 weeks of beam data, we will be removing it again, and then pushing towards the the final full deployment of our 5 La Pds.
Matthew Wetstein: Our next step is well. We have everything in hand, and this this was a long time coming. We have a lot of minor problems with with our our electronics boards do partially to aging and time, and also a few other issues. But we're now at the point where we have the full suite of electronics. We need to finish our 5 deployments.
Matthew Wetstein: We plan to take a full beam year next year, with all 5 la Pds.
Matthew Wetstein: More lapds can be added to Annie than the 5 in situ. We do plan to increase the coverage we'd like to work up to, we. We've said in the past 20, and and I think that that would be an excellent goal. I think some of our our future La Pd. Interests are in trying out Ellie Jen to La Pds, so that we can study. The reconstruction comparatively in the same detector work is under way to finalize also designs for upgraded electronics. A lot of the challenges and lessons learned
Matthew Wetstein: deployment are, are easily addressable in in new revisions of the boards and and work on that is underway.
Matthew Wetstein: This is a site I presented last time, so i'll just go through very quickly noise and heat. Inside the module power Management a are definitely a technical challenges that one needs to consider that we again, those we have largely worked out the
Matthew Wetstein: still at this stage with La Pds. There's some hand tuning for individual La Pds. It's possible that we can mitigate the design with with the design that independently controls the high voltage settings for different La Pd layers.
Matthew Wetstein: Right now we're using a single voltage that we we fan out using a resistive change that has to be customized. As I mentioned, we we have lots of small changes that we want to make to our next revision of the electronics.
Matthew Wetstein: But one of the design challenges is that there's an a. A frame on the outside of La Pds is delivered that has to be taken apart when certain aspects the electronics are modified. We've mentioned this before, but community-wide efforts to con con converge on a generic design that makes a certain kinds of these modifications easier would would be, I think, a desirable thing for the community, and having some sort of standardized interfaces that we can all agree on would be very useful.
Matthew Wetstein: And you know one of the reconstruction challenges which i'm excited to say, we've got a lot of data to work with on is multi photon disambiguation. So if you have pile up of photons on the strip lines of of an L. A. Pd. That can be challenging, especially when you add real world effects like noise and and and other sorts of issues along those lines. But but there's a lot of promise there.
Matthew Wetstein: That's the summary. Basically we've constructed and assembled our detector. We've put the 3 La Pds in the water. We've tested wbls. We'll hope to get all 5 in the next several months, and then next year it'll be a a a fairly. My My dream is a a very beige year of data taking matched by a very exciting year of of physics and reconstruction with La Pds. There are lots of opportunities, and new collaborators are welcome.
Junqi Xie: Alright, thanks.
Junqi Xie: It sounds, Matt. Any questions from the audience.
Junqi Xie: Oh, so yeah, go ahead.
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): Yes, thank you for this presentation. You have shortly mentioned your electronic chain, and I have not understood.
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): If you use, or do not use the amplification before analyzing your signals.
Matthew Wetstein: No, we don't use any pre amplification of the signals, so we they. They go directly into our our read out electronics, and we've found that the the signals are are adequately sized to be able to to do that. Yeah.
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): Okay, thank you.
Junqi Xie: All right. Okay, let's move on to the next talk
Junqi Xie: similar.
Junqi Xie: All right. I can see all the slides go ahead.
Junqi Xie: We kind of hear you. By the way.
Samo Korpar: sorry I I forgot the mute. Okay. So just a short update. That was
Samo Korpar: not much happening since the last meeting we
Samo Korpar: for almost a year we don't have L. I. Pd. In the lab, but hopefully, soon we will have new sample, so we will be able to continue so just first. Few slides will be more or less into an option that I showed last time. So let me go quickly
Samo Korpar: through them.
Samo Korpar: Hmm.
Samo Korpar: Okay, I cannot really.
Samo Korpar: Okay, let me try this. Okay?
Samo Korpar: So we have a. P Pd. 109, and to you are familiar basically with a 20 microm course
Samo Korpar: with the same as all the others. What we use is a 2D stage with laser focus down to less than 100 microns. and with with a max of about 20 picoseconds from
Samo Korpar: producer, so that we detect, multiply with new module
Samo Korpar: and discriminate the new module, and then the tech Tdc. And we in cob up Module and Atc. In the Vm. In order. So this is about set up, and that is a little bit more into back up.
Samo Korpar: Okay.
Samo Korpar: So this is. The on the left is the sound that back, then from the income and on the right is basically the back plane that we produce with different patterns.
Samo Korpar: So what I will show is basically today. Most of the measure measurements are from this area. It's 5 mm streets and 3 one inch pets.
Samo Korpar: and also an update on timing for the or the channel which is connected here on the half inch pets.
Samo Korpar: So okay, so what we do is measure the at Cdc typically with a standard. Electronics, make a correlation and correct it and correct the Tdc
Samo Korpar: is what one would expect. So it's about 40 picoseconds. The main peak, then, that is a shoulder. And then that is a basically a flat extension of the tech scatter. I lost the kind of Mexican.
Samo Korpar: This is a typical spectrum and chat sharing was actually what I saw last time. This was the main interest for us in the beginning. So it shows that this is one inch, and you can see that the the chart she spread well over the boundaries of the P.
Samo Korpar: And this is just the
Samo Korpar: blow up of this transition from middle of one bed to the other path.
Samo Korpar: So
Samo Korpar: this shows that the still not goes well beyond that, and when you measure the timing
Samo Korpar: in principle will be. What I will show later is how this changes. The timing changes with the position. So, as I said, the previous one was measured with the standard pick on board.
Samo Korpar: This is a part of the
Samo Korpar: the plane that we produced. This is the job sharing between the C a. 5 mm. It's
Samo Korpar: and the the timing for 5 mm per. It is not pets, actually. It strips 2 inch long strips, 5 mm with.
Samo Korpar: and the timing is an awfully. This a solution is roughly the same as with the pets. So the size didn't really change the timing. Now, few slides basically of a position
Samo Korpar: dependence of the timing. So this is the
Samo Korpar: now the scan along this one in each pets below channel, 1 2 3,
Samo Korpar: and you can see on the bottom. This is on the linear scale what is actually the plot? It is the position on the x-axis and on the y-axis, each slice is basically the timing distribution.
Samo Korpar: So this is the main peak, the shoulder, and then the back scheduling on the local ethnic scale. You can see the back scattering, but on Lin on scale is actually not visible.
Samo Korpar: So and these white are roughly the boundaries between the pets. So you can see that within the PET area basically the timing
Samo Korpar: a week and position stays basically the same. But the the signals that are detected from the elimination of the neighboring that actually are the that a detective delay it might to do something without the way we correct it or
Samo Korpar: some other things. It's not really at the moment so.
Samo Korpar: but within the bed it seems to be the
Samo Korpar: basically stable. This is the left pets, the middle P. And this is the right PET. And this is also the logo logarithmic scale. So you can see the
Samo Korpar: extent of the elastic back scattering timing on the back.
Samo Korpar: Now, what we use usually did already many years ago, when we started smaller ones
Samo Korpar: was to basically select only the timing from the channel which produces the maxing signal because charged it. Sharing was also also happens on the last stage.
Samo Korpar: and was also in the previous samples that we have. So if we limit only if we
Samo Korpar: load the timing only for the signals that produce the maximum response on the corresponding channel. Then basically you can see that the distribution is much more flat, but that is still a little bit of variation at the edges. So this is what
Samo Korpar: the scant over the middle of the P. That will probably be a little bit more on the
Samo Korpar: but it seems to be pretty flat within the surface of a
Samo Korpar: PET. What what actually happens at the edge is we still need to start it.
Samo Korpar: So
Samo Korpar: this is one thing that I updated. The other thing is.
Samo Korpar: we scanned over the somewhere here
Samo Korpar: in this area there is this spacer.
Samo Korpar: We have a. We have an L. A. Pd. Which has 2 parallel space that's not across.
Samo Korpar: So this is the scan, basically all of the Spicer. And you can see this is the basically the typical disruption of the signal on this pad at Number 2,
Samo Korpar: and you can see that it follows nicely, except for the area of about 4 mm when it actually it's basically that
Samo Korpar: this left. It's not very good plot, but it's it's basically just the Adc. As a function of position. But you can see that the game drops
Samo Korpar: in a bit wide range of about 10 mm.
Samo Korpar: but actually the the we lower gain, of course, still works down back in the range of roughly 4 mm.
Samo Korpar: and this is the variation of timing below on this area.
Samo Korpar: Here is again blocked with mocks. If If the maximum was detected on this channel on the Since these channels don't have the same geometry. Basically, this does not really well separate the bigger and narrow strip on the top. So the the white is basically the long that the area.
Samo Korpar: So you can see that. And this on the right side. This is from the screen.
Samo Korpar: the timing from the State when we go on the middle of the street along the street. Basically, so you can see it's pretty stable
Samo Korpar: within this area.
Samo Korpar: As I said, this: this mocks selection doesn't really work well in this case. So this is the All. These are all signals. This is the Ch. This is this: a large ped number 2, with a space that in between you can see some variation of timing around the space. So
Samo Korpar: and then this is the street. Basically
Samo Korpar: sleep actually goes beyond this area. This is the meat of the strip here. So you can see that the timing basically is
Samo Korpar: again in this region.
Samo Korpar: Okay, now the last is an up to it, just a quick update on the, and a solution with plastic
Samo Korpar: plastic is a cheap that will eventually end up as a
Samo Korpar: past to reach, or something like that, the name of the final off Asic, which will have more channels. This one has actually 4 differential channels, or 8 single and it. So we made the Protocol board to test it
Samo Korpar: for 8 single- the channels connected to the back plane. Now the the electronic from the the Vme motor that was used for Tdc is slightly different, so it has about 25 picoseconds.
Samo Korpar: And let me just go to the next slide. So this was a shown all over the last time. This is on correctly. So. The
Samo Korpar: output of this Asik at the moment is just a discriminated output. So it's a produce, a leading catch signal in Lvds Logic, and this was connected directly to the time Pdc. Module via me T. D. C. Molar, and without any
Samo Korpar: correction on the par side. Basically the solution was about a 150 picoseconds. If we are in the middle of the pets, this is basically scan of the larger area area, and if we are on this path, then the solution without connection is about 150.
Samo Korpar: No. The signal was actually too narrow to. We saw we were not able to get. This was the last we did basically the test. With this electronics. We are not able to get the time of a threshold from the information from the Asic itself.
So what we did was to
Samo Korpar: channel and measured the the chart share signal on this general, and then plotted the correlation, the timing from the
fast
Samo Korpar: and the Adc. Which in principle could be obtained from the time of now, as I understand it may be possible also for the short signals with adjusted plastic parameters.
Samo Korpar: We didn't have time to learn this, but so maybe it will. It is possible still with this asic.
Samo Korpar: But anyway, it shows that, of course, if you correct for
Samo Korpar: as variation, then the timing gets better and this is again non-co non corrected, and to them correctly, on the bottom is roughly 70 pic a second. So
Samo Korpar: Oh. that is
Samo Korpar: the digital part
Samo Korpar: at least the output on the over of
Samo Korpar: 70, because I can, including all the the contribution from electronics place. That is a certain in the Legion or at this level. Okay, so that's it. Thank you.
Junqi Xie: Thank you. Thank you for the to talk any questions from the audience. Yeah, correct. Go ahead.
craig: Yeah. You showed that the timing resolution deteriorates around the the support regions with this support.
craig: But i'm just wondering, does it? Did you? Did you measure the timing at the edge of the detector and the the the boundary of the detector wall. The edges, if you like, out near the picture frame.
Samo Korpar: is it? Do you think it changes as you get close to the No, not this time. It's actually actually my I mean I we we didn't measure with this one. I would expect something similar, but
Samo Korpar: I don't really know what is the I mean. I would say that the solution doesn't really change just the delay changes. So if you combine all without any correction. Of course it will affect the solution, and I don't know whether you have the information to correct for this.
Samo Korpar: So this this needs to be started. I'm also here also. Here one could say that the
Samo Korpar: no idea I just. I would expect that something that happened, at least with the smaller devices that we tested many years ago. They had a similar and stronger effect at the edge, then, between the channels, but similar to the shift in the delay, but not really the shift in the Us. The spread. Yeah.
craig: that's what I'm: i'm
thinking that even without the spacers as you get near the ages of the detector.
craig: Maybe this is it's it's difficult to correct for at least, and maybe there's some timing. It's like near the ages. So
Samo Korpar: we yeah, we didn't it's with this first measurement. We didn't really test the the all the area. Just some.
Junqi Xie: Okay, Great Sylvia.
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): Oh, it's simply a a question for clarification. All this timing, and besides that, you have shown some of they have been obtain you in single for the electron configuration. Have I got it correct?
Samo Korpar: Yes, typically it's in the sample. It's more than 90% single photos. It's a very weak.
Samo Korpar: so there are always some small portion of double or multi photon, but more than 90%.
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): Yeah, yeah, it's just to make sure this. Okay, Thank you.
Junqi Xie: Great. All right. Okay, great. So thank you. Everyone. And then I think we
Junqi Xie: now can conclude that the first section and then we have a coffee break for 10 min last 1124,
Junqi Xie: so we have the less stop, and the 1130 or
Junqi Xie: oh, oh, 1230, or 1235,
Junqi Xie: or we continue.
Junqi Xie: Maybe it's not needed. I would say.
Junqi Xie: Yeah, okay.
Junqi Xie: All right. So let's have a 10 min break and back at 1235 there.
Alexander Kiselev: in general. I think you can start sharing your slides.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: Yes.
michael Minot: and
Vincenzo Vagnoni: okay.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: Will You see the screen.
Yes, yes, it's not in a full screen.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: Not yet.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: Okay. Now Shouldn't: be full screen.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: Yes, now it's fine, and I I think we start. So it's already. Okay. So this is an update of the status, for we we did with the Ppd. For the upgrade of
Vincenzo Vagnoni: in our client. I will give a brief reminder for the of the project. But if you, if you work for the information, and also have a look up to your results, if you can refer to the to her. Your Ppd worships and links here for your convenience.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: and what we are going to discuss today is is the results of the latest being tested. Daisy, with the electrons from one to 5.10 Gv. Would be to take in last December.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: and we will see the results about the timing resolution that we got the position of the solution and also detection efficiency.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: So a Greek reminder is, it is here the you see the upgrade to will operate in a hash upon the environment that they see with this sometimes zoom of a protocol. So it's about 2.5, 1030 to 34,
Vincenzo Vagnoni: there would be a high background in the most central region, and what we believe is measuring the time of the heats will be crucial to. So we pile up, and in in in particular, simulation indicates that it having a resolution of about the order of 20 people seconds is businesses.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: So the idea is to sketch it in this pictures. On the top you see, the colorimeters is, Be back in 2 h, and then, and then at time you lay it in in a in a small gap.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: The other idea, which is a pretty simple is, is is to operate in a photo of this mode. So you have a a start. The particles from the automatic shower which I utilize directly
Vincenzo Vagnoni: electrons within the course of the Mcb's such that you you can get 3 top of all the photo cattle, and then you don't have the problems of the lifetime of the photo account, which is the earliest one to to die with this, this, this type of detective. So consider that we are talking here of integrated charges during the lifetime of the experiment of the other of 3 other cooler space centimeter, which is still in order to manage to larger than the best results that
I've got lemon, for example, that, as as demonstrated with the existing and
Vincenzo Vagnoni: okay. So this is a a scheduled experimental set up at the Daisy. We had a an electron beam, and then, you know, it was used just for 3 going to the conversation. 2 records at Cp. Pmps for a for time, and then 3 tracking chambers. What you see here on the right is the fraud off of the Eco Module. And then there is the a Ppd which is getting this electromagnetic showers and the and mesh
you the time.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: so we use it. The hey custom made the 80 ppd by in comma, which was we with the second 3 Mcps in in the z that configuration.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: As I say, it's good for to cut on less operation, and then you covering the model was relatively small, about 4.5 cm inside. It was called just a little region of the much larger. So it th. This was a generation to a Ppd. And so we were working in practice with 4, only 4 pixels, which were the ones which were covered by becoming the module.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: Okay, so let's let's move on, and this is just a sketch which which indicates where the was placed, and so which one the 4 pixels affected by by need. This measurement, and then we also perform the scan of the being position, in order to illuminate various regions of this 2 by 2 pixel metrics.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: Then what one problem was how to combine the measurements of the 4 different pixels. So because in general you may have a an electromagnetic shower which is spread over more pixels. Certainly. Why do it individual? But also when you meet
Vincenzo Vagnoni: in a, in a, in on one of the pixels you may have particle spreading goes on the surrounding pizzas.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: And then 1 one problem was how to combine this, what we did, what we we use the machine learning approach in the end, so it in particular, a regress of which is called the run on forest and is available in
Vincenzo Vagnoni: Sc. Learn the psychiat package. So this will out the input variables from the 4 pixels. So the the time it's a 10%, 50% and 9% in the late, and the position indicated by the tracking. So what we did, we train it?
The the regression on some simple it that to measure the performance on the
Vincenzo Vagnoni: so before go ahead, we made first the voltage scan in order to understand that all thing about the settings of the so. As I said, we have 3 here, but then we we also, at the possibility, and that the possibility to this activate one of them cities, the top one, so we we we could in this case, since we are not using your photocopy. So if we, if we a in a bit the the Upper Mcp. We can work with the remaining 2 once.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: and, in fact, what we found is that with 3 active Mcps. We get timing resolutions which are at best around the 25 picoseconds. This was for the run of the 5 Gd electrons.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: whereas with 2 active upcps we we can go down to about 20 picoseconds for for 5, G.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: So i. E. For this reason, in the following we will show the results with the with 2 instead of 3.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: So far the more we reduce it ourselves to a. If you do your region, which was far from the edges of the of the big. So simply because we wouldn't use the information of the surrounding pixels because they were not covered by the calorie metal module. So this is the what you see here. In the center is the fiduciate region that that we use, and the vice Cdr spots that you see are the big spots, each spot corresponding to a different run. Where we we're standing in the position
Vincenzo Vagnoni: so due to the conditions as you may see, it was impossible to have in that distributed very uniformly. However, we were able to. To.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: We get a decent coverage of of the the the interesting surface.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: So what you see in this slide are the timing resolution. So this are the time to measure it as an output of the for Us. Regress, or combining the information of the 4 pixels, and the the reference, the time of the reference Pm. So from one gp to G, 3 4 5, and 5.8, which was maximum energy that we measure it. And Daisy.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: So you see that the distributions are Gaussian like, I mean, and they even improve
Vincenzo Vagnoni: the industriality going from one Gv. To to the largest energy of 550, and here, on the on the left, you see the dependence of the Tiber solution as a function of energy where the type of solution of the reference and Cp. Said will already be subtracted in quadrant. So what you see here is the plane time resolution that we get from the Ppd. So you see, we are about 5 50 people seconds in one Gb. And we reach about 1 18 people second at the 5 point.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: Okay, then another thing that we say we've wondered what position or resolution we could achieve with the
Vincenzo Vagnoni: with the with this. So let me remind you this: this is a at 2.5 60 meters pitch for the annotic pixels.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: So the the the pixels are really large. Then we try to understand how much, By combining the information again of the 4 pixels we can get in terms of a position resolution.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: and you can have a look here. So you see, this is on the left is the the what? They put real position of the in pitching electrons. Measure it from the tracking chambers. So in a this is a an Xy plane.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: and then your the right is what is seen by the people, so it you see the same pattern, but it's much more blurred, because
Vincenzo Vagnoni: you know the the pixels are large, or and then the however you you have you, you may have an idea of what this is going on, and then we we can look at the one dimensional distributions of the resolution. So these are the resolutions, the position measured by the chambers. And then you see the distribution of the good Christianity in general for each of the and if you look at the
Vincenzo Vagnoni: the dependence of the position of a solution is functional energy. You see that we go from about 4 mm to one Gd. Who about 3 million meters. This is the
Vincenzo Vagnoni: So, despite we are working with the pixels of 2.5, 60 meters in 9 we were able to achieve, for at best 3 mm in the in the position. Resolution: this Bo book in X and Y. You're showing just the distribution for X. But for the while you're
Vincenzo Vagnoni: okay. The last part is on detection efficiency. So we want to measure to understand those cases where the the epid gives no signal, and that this can be you both to or either to electromagnetic showers fluctuations. So you don't have
Vincenzo Vagnoni: the enough particles reaching the Dlbd. In the shower. This is particularly too, where the energy is more so one Gd. Is, then, then the the the multiplicity of of the practical in the shower increases almost in a with the energy. Or can we do also do an interesting efficiency of the lipid. So not all the electrons which troubles the upcps. Ionize an electron in the right.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: So basically what we do we put the cut of the sum of the 4, the of the 4 channels, and then in this way we get 3 Toby bets, where we have No, no, no, no, you know. So we count on empty. That's from this black line of words on the on the right.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: Okay. okay, this is the same.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: And then this is what we we got here. So you see here the efficiency, the final is this: this like before as a function of energy. So for one Gd. Electrons we had to quite a drop in efficiency at about 75%
Vincenzo Vagnoni: for 2 fcps. But you see that with 3 andcps we have a larger efficiency in general. What's a throw in which you said, this is because I mean, we. You have more material where the initial electron can be I. You know it inside the the Mcp. So it's. It's higher. The probability that the signal is is.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: and also I mean 2
Vincenzo Vagnoni: W. Where, as I say, the 2 Mcps are better concerning time resolution, because you have low, low fancy time in the detector, and so also with the time of time spread, but 3 andcps are more efficient and lower energy, and also the idea of of starting a. An with 3 Mc. Pieces, that it may be also beneficial for a higher rate of position. But this has to be to be understood.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: Okay. So in conclusion, how we have operated the the less mode in in L. A. Ppd. We did Z. Stack. Custom made by income and data will collect the DC. Last December with electrons from one to
Vincenzo Vagnoni: so 4 5 point in TV. The was placed at the about the short maximum meeting, and I with the module we. So the the machine learning approach to combine the information on multiple.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: We got a slightly better time. There's room show with 2 up to the Cp. System of 3 in the range of 18 picoseconds for 5, with theg electrons and 50 people seconds for one Gd. Elections.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: Although the exercise was larger, 2.5 cm, a good position resolution within 3, and and the 4 mm was achieved by combining the information of the 4 pizzas.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: and we observed a drop in detection efficiency at one to Gb. With 2 Mcps, which was better with 3 and Cps.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: We think that improvements, booking time and position of a solution that we expected is likely to be. We'd use a pixel. So let's say we pick the sizes of all around. 160 meet the same page, and then we'll be able to be tested at it's served as the in in next June, with the lectures from a.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: Went to G to 100 plus and more Gv. Where the with with diet energies in general, we expect that even better performances than at least, so we wish to tech in the
Alexander Kiselev: Thank you, Vincenzo, and we have questions.
Alexander Kiselev: France, please your first.
Franz Muheim: Yeah. Hi. I'm. Trying to understand
Franz Muheim: and and and putting a point in perspective, how how this works for you?
Franz Muheim: I mean, where are the electrons generated. Are they at the what do you call when the maip is a boundary?
Franz Muheim: And do you know how many maps per centimet of the Mcp. How many in each primary electrons you you start out with.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: Okay, so this is an estimate. It's not the precise measurement, but yes. So the the the electrons are generated, the on the surface of the poor. So when
Vincenzo Vagnoni: the a. A. A track in this case an electoral or a positive or no call the shower crosses the the internal to space of the port. So these electrons are detached from the the surface of the port.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: The both of the efficiency for a single particle is in the is around 70%.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: So it means that when you have a single party charged particle toversing the the dector, about 60. 70% of them are really a measurable signal.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: Okay.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: in a shower you may have the, you know, even tents of particles. And so basically you. You know events you have. You have. You have a signal, but if you use it only for a single charged particle, then you have the inefficient.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: I think you are muted now in France.
Franz Muheim: Yeah, to turn it around your time. Resolution Of what is it? 10 at 20 pic a second, or even better.
Franz Muheim: Yeah, how much of this is due to square root of end, of having many.
Franz Muheim: how it was produced.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: So what we measured the in the lab with the with the laser is that we? The same goes for the later. With this model we can. We can get something about 50 picoseconds.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: So if you want.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: I mean it it a real facing. But because, of course, this year what we are doing here is not the same thing as using the photo of the in the laser. So, but roughly for a single electron, let's say we would respect order of 50 to 50, because second, maybe in our case even more, because the the difference with the photocopy operation is that all the all electrical stuff from a a given surface.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: however order of 50, 60 ppo seconds is for a single for the electron with this model. And then, yeah, you. For the rest, it comes from display route. But you also have to account for the fact that not all of the particles in the shower are perfectly synchronized. So you have the time spread also the evolution of the shower that that is comfortable with the with the with the performance of the detector.
Franz Muheim: So but no, no, i'm confused. I thought you only had the Mcps and not the photo cathode, or is this incorrect?
Vincenzo Vagnoni: No, no, yeah. I mean. So in this, in this, in the beam test we use just the Dfcp. You put a photo castle in front of it.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: There is a photo of the in the in the in the tube, but we need it during the test beam operation. So we we put the best bias such that in any case we don't have any
Alexander Kiselev: France was that. Did did you get the answer? Because it I think we also need. I'm done. Thanks. Thank you. I'm muted too early.
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): Yes, so thank you for this very interesting results. We change so. But to this a decides also 3 G.
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): Some questions, for example, if I have understood correctly.
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): your electric beam was always illuminating a very small portion of the surface.
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): Yes, but when my show results we are putting together all of the runs, so we are, Scott. But this means that in this way probably it was difficult to get collective effects in the sense that tomorrow.
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): in a large calorie matter, where you form a a of a certain size. you will have at the same time
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): particles crossing a a different points of the same device.
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): I mean, and that therefore this this is not giving you an answer about possible.
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): How can I say if I so I want to defect, due to the correlation of more.
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): amplify this multiplied particles crossing the same device?
Vincenzo Vagnoni: So you mean you mean you? You mean that that we may have a lot of people going to the scenario.
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): I can can play at all
Vincenzo Vagnoni: What? What? Probably what you mean is that you you may have some quote in quote cross Toll from the from the the, the, the fact that you know, if you. If you raise the charge on the of the far from your your pixel, this will spread out, and and then you level. So some signal in in a. This is what you need.
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): Yes; but if you have several particles, you can have also, on a short and time scale
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): a reduction of the effective voltage. because
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): the the distribution of the voltage is via the
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): So I don't know.
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): asking, and the second thing in in the same direction is that now that you have so clearly explained
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): that you generate your
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): electrons on the walls of the micro-channel plate
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): and as you expected to work at higher rate in a clouded environment as it is at.
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): do you imagine, to study also aging effect?
Vincenzo Vagnoni: So we we, we, I I showed some status in the previous. So if you go on the links that I put on in the outline and the previous presentation that I gave it the last Lpd worship, there was the result of a study
Vincenzo Vagnoni: made by er irradiating the a Pd. With 10 to the 16 problems. So in a square centimeter. And then there was also another study of the
Vincenzo Vagnoni: gain of the Mcps as a function of the integrated Challenge, where we reach at about 300 kilometers square centimeter.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: So it doesn't appear that there is the problem of aging
Vincenzo Vagnoni: at least up to 300, so that well not. There is an aging, of course, but it's not. I mean. It's an Ag that you can compensate by by changing the the voltage bias. Now, what matters most, however, is the operation I rate conditions.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: So we what we have seen is that if we exceed order of 10 megas per centimeters of the charged particles, the game starts to be very low, so probably
Vincenzo Vagnoni: the I'm. Not, probably for sure. I mean the the the most important task to to to to understand now is is the operation in high rate conditions.
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): Okay, Thank you.
Alexander Kiselev: Jeremy.
Jerry: Okay, I I have a question. What is the total charge per shower?
Jerry: You You see, on the
Vincenzo Vagnoni: that? Well, that that that, of course depends on on the on the voltage, I mean for your typical condition.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: Hey? Now I don't have the numbers up on my mind, but you know, so I I can. I can make it back of the or allow calculations, since in the end we are working with the relatively low gains of the order of 5, 10 to to the 5.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: So if we have, say in a shower, we have the say, 10 particles, which, for response more or less to 3 Gv. So 10 particles, and then, assuming that on average you I unites while it's on the particles, is 5 to 10 to the 6
Vincenzo Vagnoni: for a per hour, and then increase the lean. And so, for it is 10 times more, for 300 Tvs is 100 times more so, for the largest and value.
Jerry: Do you see any after pulsing? Did you look at at that?
Vincenzo Vagnoni: But no, we don't see any after paths in the in the simples? But i'll I'll get you make them up. So you mean that you you mean, and I on which it's it's it's internal and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and and
Jerry: could indicate that the after pulsing is caused by photo cattle. You don't have photo cutter right? No, no. We don't have to look at my Well, yes, it it it's a I mean it's something that I
Jerry: It can be saved for sure, after the past is mainly come from from photo cap. Yes, so so the only sort of limitation I could, since you don't have a photo.
Jerry: The only limitation I can see is that
Jerry: the the micro Channel plate is a kind of
Jerry: poor conductor, actually. and so you can charge it up.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: What do you? What do you mean? A good conductor? I mean it's it's not metal. It's not metal. So it you know it's well in this case, for the what you have is that you have the layer, a conductive layer, I mean resistively actually, which is deposited on on the surface of the post. When you have a strict current, which, which, which, continuously closing in, which is really so. The inside the Mcp. There is a high car, that actually, which is always there, even without any
Vincenzo Vagnoni: an electromagnetic shower.
Jerry: But obviously you can. You can
Jerry: with a lot of charge you can. You can basically start the being limited by that resistivity.
Jerry: whatever that is.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: We don't have to charge what you are limited for is the replenishment time of the
before. So if you have very high rain
Vincenzo Vagnoni: of of the deposit of a of, I need to charge, then your your for start to be quoted with discharges, and so you have to wait at the sleeping current which is blowing in the the force. Recharge is the post up that they are ready to to create a new avalanche. I mean, that is the usual problem of Xp. P. And this for for a rate operations. So did Did you measure time, Constant? How how many you know how long it takes
Jerry: before the Mcp is back in sort of normal situation
Vincenzo Vagnoni: in the in the test beings, not because the rate of the the particles from the beam is is a relatively low at most that certain is up to a few 10 schillers, whereas in a
Vincenzo Vagnoni: in a daisy it's it's just order one kilos, so the the rate of of of particles initial, but because it's more in the laboratory. Yes, we we. We made measurements with dialing pulses last of pounces, but i'm not. I'm not sure it here. But I mean, if you want an author of magnitude of the timely port needs to be recharged. It is the order of a millisecond which is the typical.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: the typical time.
Jerry: So it's a long time.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: It's a long time yet. They're fortunate to you. Don't have a single poor, so since you have many ports, I mean the the the strategy that is that of reducing the number, the sites of the post such that you have a larger number of both per Unitaria.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: Now income is come, is now started to produce 10 microns hopefully. In the future they may go even below the microns and the other strategy to cope with their rates is to a large, the stripping current, you know the to recharge more quickly. The
Jerry: okay. Okay, Are you? Okay? I I think that that I ask.
Jerry: you know. Okay, Thank you.
Okay, Thank you very much. And so I think we need to move on. And your second talk, please.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: Okay. So Alexander asked me to leave this stalk and that, and a bit the shame, and that is, that is, that is connected because he is the one who invented this, and so knows much better than me anything I am about. So I hope he will forgive me for anything else.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: Okay, so so I we we were talking in particular of the Kyle 1742, which is, which is is the dating board we 30 to 20 plus
Vincenzo Vagnoni: 4 channels for the 2 trigger inputs which are based on the Ts. 4, so we have 4 Ds, 4 chips, 8 signals pro plus one twinker, so it's cheap as 9 9 9 9 9 inputs. The maximum security rate is 5 gigas per second, which means there are about 200 people seconds per set on average.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: In this case we we with the 5 Gigahertz, we have a full acquisition. We don't call for 200 and something. Now seconds.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: The board comes, pre collaborated from the factory with an online collaboration. But the default collaboration we found is largely some of you know, and so one needs to perform a door of calibration when you want to see the ultimate performances for for the ask.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: So there are 2 types of calibration. One is all concerning most of the jobs that's for reach sell when I say sell, and in a a capacitor of the of the of the capabilities and and and then also you have to collaborate the time week so
Vincenzo Vagnoni: and so the calibration has to go on. We don't set by sale, which means, I mean a a a relatively large large number of of of of costs that that one needs to to.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: So just. I mean very briefly on the concept of the Us. For this is based on on a Sc. A, C, a, c. Which capacitor a race. But it's an example in one month. So there is a fast sequence of like pulses which allows the recording of the waveforms in the the composite. Also, it's very frequency which then can later be read out and digitized by a ABC at the matching over.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: and then each cell comes with the random offset, which is constant over time, although there is a in mind dependent on something better. I mean we we didn't observe with normal temporal ranges very, very large difference. But it is well known that if you have a cooperate, you know wide range of competitors.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: you may have to take that into account, or for the so. This is the plot taken from this paper, which I think is shipping. It was one of the on this paper.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: So let's start from the cell of the offset integration to to kind of bring the one to which we see injected, into which channel of the board the set of customs voltages. So, for example, 3 points are already enough to to make a the, the, the, the the so, for example, from minus 0 point 4 to 0 point, 4 passing by at 0. Remember that full dynamic reach of the year's 4 is about one volt a little bit more actually in the for each cell.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: It is that performance on on the voltage is a function of the like Gdp accounts, and then the cost that's from the feats providing the the the absolute voltage calibration which not the link to also the offset correct.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: So you see here, for example, in here we took much more than 2 points in in 3 points in this example, where you see the voltage as a function of Dbc counties, and it is very good linearity. And then on in the we, the plot you can see a typical fix it both to July before the kind of bridge, so i'm kind of grated, and then on the right hand side, you see the same one but the after blind the calibration, and then on the bottom plot is the the distribution of a single channel of the receiver.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: and you see that once you properly kind of break the shape of the the electronic noise which is typical of the G. Us. For is, it is of the order of 0 point, 5 minimal. Software.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: Okay.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: Okay, then going to the sales time with collaboration. This is more quickly created as the one needs to measure the effectiveness of every of the sales. And so the basic idea is this: before I found the also the same idea described it in the paper by Dominique in collaborator. So I didn't find the reference when I was preparing the talk, but i'm sure you you can find it if you look around.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: We just made the small improvement to the technique describing the paper you got to avoid using the integrity procedure that was indicated as as the the the technique, and then this in that paper. So we we, we made a little change such that this is not no longer necessary.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: then the technique for 10 calibration is just to inject into the channel of the board a frequency sign waveform for 5,
Vincenzo Vagnoni: and the the idea is to look for 0. Crossings of the same way form a ide ideally. It can be done even faster with the triangle or reform as the linearity of the time where we formulas want to use more points and not all the 0 crossings so less lower statistics if you want to make the getting a good collaboration. But in order to have one of the Megas we tri away from, you need to high end the box generator that we actually have. So we try to both triangles inside. We in the end, and we we try and go. We're forming in less events, but
Vincenzo Vagnoni: in the the the results are are
Vincenzo Vagnoni: okay. So if you look, then you know, after the calibration, you make the distribution of the time with the of a single cell. I mean, you also have a single channel. You see that each cell is a different time with, and you in. This was. It was Stephan was was commenting on the some talks ago, so the difference between sales can be on average order, 100 picoseconds.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: But you know, if you consider the details can be when to 200 people seconds, and then you may have also, in some rate cases, even negative
Vincenzo Vagnoni: and some chips. But this is very great, I would say order. 1% of of of all the China's may have such such an issue. But in any case, if it happens you have to take you break out to, so that what you see on the right is that so? As I say it all in this 2 pix correspond to all the and even cells.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: I don't remember which one is on the which which is even, but it's it's not fair enough. And then you also may see if you plot the same number they may. The time we does a function of this number. You also see that the the first 500 to 212, and it's just an offset, and then the the
Vincenzo Vagnoni: the rest, the the reminder of of the Channel, 7 other offices. So there are. Go this in regimes, which are separated by 500 509 as well.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: Well, all of this is well known, by the way by I, by Stephan and bye bye, with those who have started the the the, the you have support chief in Manita. So nothing new.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: Then, in order to cross, check the time. Accuracy of the collaboration. What can make it a simple signals to test? So what you see here on the right, you. You take one. See now generate by, you know, with or whatever the generator, and then you splitting the into it 2 parts, and you said one part 1 one signal, one of the speeds, you know to what channel, and then you take the time and you take the time
Vincenzo Vagnoni: so you can make this this test easily when you are working within the same here as for Chip.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: But, for example, the the 1742 as for these years for chips. So if you want to synchronize them, you have you. You have to use some one channel, basically, we that you know. I mean that you feed with the
Vincenzo Vagnoni: with the with the split signal I share a shared commons to split signal such that you can use that one as a reference will hide the the time of the different Us. For Chips.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: for example, in the case of the 17 people you can use the the trigger channels themselves to do this job.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: Then I just was like of the experience in frustrate the knowledge. So Chandra and then from my they came to following the last, create a April the third so the basic tools that we use at the time time 1742. In this case they at the Vm controller
Vincenzo Vagnoni: read out by, you know, book by a USB, or you can use the directed, you know, to the finder output of the 1742. Then we at the start of the past generator, which was from key side.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: And then okay, the other basic tool is every basic software code which is needed to produce the
Vincenzo Vagnoni: So in the afternoon or the third. We kind of bring it together. The channels the first day channels for the first years for cheap, and tested the time. The solution between the channels in the full day, or pre 400, that but alone. So without my yet they kind of great at the the the remaining 24 channels.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: and then on the morning over it will be fine, but then calibrate the the the solution between the different groups. So we channel us, using the figures as as as a reference posting conversation between the
Vincenzo Vagnoni: then. These are a few plots, other plots to this by chatting them. So this is the timer solution between channels. 0, Myo Sax, where ex it goes from one to 7. So what Charlie speaks, and there and then we move the other china, and measured the demo solution between the 2. So you see that this is all in the board park of 2 pico cycles. You may have some fluctuations even up to 2.5 to 6 pico seconds, because the Chancellor we have not frequently identical.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: And then another interesting feature is this one. So if you look at the time offset. Within the channels, you see that there is a pattern which probably reflects the length of the trucks inside on the PCB. Conducting the the signals from from the connectors to the
Vincenzo Vagnoni: which which, of course, I mean it's. It's quite understandable. And and then here, okay, this is a to this is by them on the tribute channel. Set time with distribution, which is course, is each other like the other, so it's exactly same pattern. And then Here is the properly time of solution between 2 channels of 2 different groups. Use using by reference the 3
Vincenzo Vagnoni: between the channel, and they measure it about 3.5. Pico.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: Okay. So to conclude, 2 full days I enough to explain the log, you can kind of grate those out and so they 1742 kind board the we about 2, 3 picosecond precision, and in case one needs to calculate multiple bo that necessary some automation would be needed to but for the one of the contribution proceeded that we develop. And then the quote: i'm not to for that, because we had just 1, 2 boats to kind of greet it so was not worth making it an an effort to who made it
Vincenzo Vagnoni: for our case. Okay, I think I finished.
Alexander Kiselev: Thank you, Vincent, and Of course, I asked you to give this presentation on purpose, because
there are several groups which are using these modules.
Alexander Kiselev: and this knowledge transfer. So if it if it was possible to share the calls, let's say.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: Yeah, they could. This they quote that. Well, of course it is possible I I shared the quote with the with that in China which are free to share, because we do whatever they want and the if you, if you want to ask me.
Alexander Kiselev: of course, there there is no problem. Okay, very good. There is a problem for for me. There is no problem then. And then, if there is an instruction or something like, because not everybody can come to
Vincenzo Vagnoni: can visit you. Yeah. Well, this is 4.3. I I never managed to make any documentation, but I mean the the the logic is well described in the paper by ship, and then collaborate. So that is exactly that. There is just a small modification. We avoid the the the the
Vincenzo Vagnoni: procedure that they were using. But besides that, logic is basically the same, then the code itself, you know it's. It's a simple minded. I mean it's it's not anything funds. I mean it's it's something that was written for the park also being used by
Vincenzo Vagnoni: by a few people. So I think I can share it. I can they? There are some comments in the code. I can provide some help in using it.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: Chandra and that book, started to use it and learn to use it in a in a while, I mean in a couple of hours, so it's not.
Alexander Kiselev: Probably we can ask them to write a manual. Don't. Ask me, please, because unfortunately, I have 3 a lot of things to do so if they can. It would be more than it.
Alexander Kiselev: Okay, Sit there, please go ahead.
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): Yes. So thank you for this instructive talk. If I got correctly from your work some
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): that is the following aspect that when you would like to use China is from more than one cheaper.
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): then you need in a certain way to simplify one channel per cheaper
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): sending the same signal as a Have I got it correctly? Not exactly in the sense that we did the 1742 you have at least one channel which it of the Ds. For which is already
Vincenzo Vagnoni: devoted the to to the 3 direct, and so you can use the trigger channel directly to make this incorporation, since in any case you have a clicker. So it that is, that is already enough.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: One thing that I didn't touch here is the existing of these spikes in the Us. 4, which is a feature, I mean a knowing feature, which is, which is there that can be
Vincenzo Vagnoni: easily intercepted. For example, if you waste the channel, so if you do use each other, and then you look for spikes in the channel, you may see, recognize those, and then correct them in the other in the other China's, because they are all synchronized in time, however, in general. We have seen also with that in Chandra a few weeks ago. Even if you forget about the spikes, the effect on the
Vincenzo Vagnoni: actual global performance this is is almost irrelevant because this spikes becomes relevant when they exact 3 at and on top of the license product we check them with the very low probability, anyway. So
Vincenzo Vagnoni: those can be can be forgotten. People that I would say.
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): Thank you
Alexander Kiselev: definitely.
Stefan Ritt: Yeah. I've 3 things to to command here, as I can imagine. First of all, the the spikes are solved. It's like like like 5 years. So I understand where they come from, and they can be easily fixed by a. From your modification
Stefan Ritt: which which brings me to the it. Actually, I I I can maybe tell you, offline what it is. But you you need to modify the firmware, and in your case you would have to talk to Kyan, which to my second point.
Stefan Ritt: I mean. It's really nice to see that people understand now the timing collaboration, and they want to pass it on to the next to the next, which is kind of cumbersome, right? So since there are some it talent people in the collaboration.
Stefan Ritt: Have you ever thought talking to time about that. I mean they, as I understand they don't have the resources to put. If also them themselves, it's just for the sell ports right. They don't have time just to fine-tune things, and
Stefan Ritt: because they won't get more income by that but if if you have good contact with kind might be. Somebody could not go through Bologna, but going to via let you it kind together with them, and then fix it once and for all, so that everybody then buying the ball from kind would benefit from that. Right?
Vincenzo Vagnoni: That's a
Stefan Ritt: see? Yeah, it's the most indicated one because it's the yeah, yeah, and and i'm i'm happy to help. I'm happy to come down to that. We are rich, you! I like it myself a lot, and I can teach everybody how to do it, probably in order to to avoid double and triple work. Right?
Stefan Ritt: So it's it's kind of in principle. They could also quit the ports with the with the with the line back, and then also we don't know, see later, and perform the calibration, and automatically.
Stefan Ritt: and and the third part is what I mean. You You mentioned already this between the chips
Stefan Ritt: sacrifice this channel, or use the quicker channel.
Stefan Ritt: So the the point is that the
Stefan Ritt: each chip is controlled by a and this Pl. L. Between the chips between 20 and so the Pico seconds.
Stefan Ritt: That means, if you start comparing between trips, and you don't do anything you get an accuracy of 20 to sort of picoseconds, which, as I understand correctly in your case, is is too much so in. Indeed, there's the nice channel of the Ds. And it's exactly for that, you know. So they do assemble something on the ninth Channel.
Stefan Ritt: However, it does not make sense to sample the trigger. because the the resolution
Stefan Ritt: decreases.
Stefan Ritt: The wide of the sickness are a part. So if you, if you measure the time between 2 signals, which are a part, 100 nanose against them. The resolution is much worse than if the signals are part by by by by one nanoseconds, something like that, because this is slewing between the chance increase over time right, and then
Stefan Ritt: get fixed on the next one for the
Stefan Ritt: so having a single trigger is is this is not very good. So what what we do in in our experiments we put a Huddle Megahertz clock
Stefan Ritt: on these lines Channel, and then you have every 10 on this against you have an edge, and then you choose one edge, and then the the maximum delay you have between the edge, and any signal is like plus minus 5 nanoseconds.
Vincenzo Vagnoni: and then, and only then you get the in the chip collaboration in the region of 2 to 3 picoseconds. This is this is indeed exactly what we do in our test team. Sorry. So we we use one channel of the of each of the 8 groups with the with an external sign wave. For so this is exactly what we do. But if you don't want to waste what the chat, and that the possibly to use that we can already exist. And it depends on what is the precision that you are
Stefan Ritt: You're you're looking for, of course. Yeah. But but the the Nine's channel is there on every so if if you can convince kind again to modify the firmware, and not to send the trick up to this 9, then your problem would be solved without wasting a channel.
Stefan Ritt: You you're right, but i'm not so powerful, so maybe
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): I had infinite power. This is not exactly correct.
Stefan Ritt: We used to bring some of the to be a
Alexander Kiselev: Oh, so, Stefan, if I may ask just a short question. But if I use a limo connector. So for this external trigger
Alexander Kiselev: for triggering and feed these 100 megahertz into analog trigger inputs. Is it the same effect? Then
Stefan Ritt: I I I don't know how the I'm Board was made. I don't know if they have this external relatively going to the Channel, or if it goes through the Fpga, I would have to see their schematics, which are never so. So I don't know how it works internally.
Stefan Ritt: You have to ask kind.
Alexander Kiselev: Okay. Thank you. Okay. So at the very least we can expect It's a short manual, hopefully in the shoot. you know. But maybe we can upload this to git. I don't know. So just make it a repository.
Alexander Kiselev: so that people can't afford and save, because I myself wasted
Alexander Kiselev: weeks of time trying to reproduce. So make it better because I wanted to calibrate several boards
and make something more generic. And somehow it will be.
Alexander Kiselev: It would save me time if something like this was was available.
Alexander Kiselev: Yeah, I I I think it. If some time to to make it, I I would be just that. I mean, I. Unfortunately, my time is
Alexander Kiselev: okay, cool. Okay, Thank you, Vincent: so I think we should move on. And I saw that look is online. And look at any, please.
Alexander Kiselev: Yes.
Alexander Kiselev: Hi.
Luca Macchiarulo: Sorry just to start sharing.
Luca Macchiarulo: I think I think you should be able to see my screen.
Alexander Kiselev: Hmm.
Yes.
Luca Macchiarulo: Who is gonna start? Okay, alright, so yeah, thanks. I wanted to thank thank Alexander to for for inviting us again to to give a an update on our activity, for
on the on the digitizer asics. And this is gonna be largely a follow up to the to the talk that we gave last
Luca Macchiarulo: last October. Basically just updates on the various chips. And I I apologize if there's some some replicated slides. But I just wanted to to make sure that the the context is the context is clear.
Luca Macchiarulo: So Well, first of all, just to of in case people are not. I don't know where we at now are concentrated in in in building this away from digitizer system on a chip where we basically do a a, a.
Luca Macchiarulo: a, a, a sample and hold a chip that also has digitization, capability, and and and some, and some and some Dsp. On board to to offload some of the operations that would would need to be done. For example, as in the the Rs. 4 K's on the on an external, an external device, and besides fabricating the chip, we're trying to do a work, some in an integration in bars, and i'll show this at the end of the slide, and with main application in a and Php. Experiment, are also trying to branch into.
We have a project for Pt. Imaging, and the plasma fusion, diagnostics, and and and some some some other, related the field.
Luca Macchiarulo: The only other thing that they wanted to mention is that we are. We have a a a, a collaboration, a in agreement with the with kind that has become our exclusive distributor for
Luca Macchiarulo: for for North American, so we will, If If anyone is interested in some of our chips or B, or evaluation boards for benchmark testing it's, it's possible now to go to Ken, and we we effectively are providing the board at the moment. But but we we need to go through them in order to. In order to do this. This initial testing.
Luca Macchiarulo: This is the list of the current. By current basic projects I mean the projects for which we have. We have asic that are mature enough to be distributed to to potential users.
Luca Macchiarulo: And as you see in this in this stable, we are actually going through different types of sampling rates from the this from the slower, like around one giga sample per second to the faster, which are above 10 giga sample per second. We have measured the different timing resolution from a minimum of 10 to a maximum. I mean to a, to a, to like a 100 or a little bit over 100 for the slower sampling rates.
Luca Macchiarulo: and also large number of channels. So, for example, HD. Sock, the last version, actually, we just got a Rev. 2. That will be will be tested that contain 64, 64 channels. Now
Luca Macchiarulo: I first want to to mention I I'll be very brief here, because effectively, there's a lot of the the previous talks are being underlining this one.
Luca Macchiarulo: Some of these advantages, or they'll be way from the digitization, and I will move on to to describe some of the the updates on the on the on a few chips that we described last time, and also on a couple of others that I I don't think I had time to discuss
Luca Macchiarulo: now the the advantages of a digitizing architecture, at least from our point of view. With respect to more traditional way of of extracting timing and charge that using Tdc. Or time of a threshold is that
we could potentially give up, get a better estimates of overall charge, because effectively, we know we know the entire waveform. We the way for me, information having more than one sample can help us in giving in giving a better timing, timing resolution as the previous talk, as a. As a demonstrated with the Drs. 4 K's.
Mostly because of the noise on the on the single point. It becomes less important when you can actually sort of average the effect of multiple points.
Luca Macchiarulo: and potentially you can co correct for a a pile up and g gain variation overall wonder of the signals. The obviously there's a there's a disadvantage which is the complexity. The additional design complex is much higher. And but the the good thing is that with modern technology, with the higher integration, we can really fit a lot of channels in in a single device.
Luca Macchiarulo: So again, this is a slide. This is an old slides, so I don't want to dwell too much on it. But the idea is that if we, if we use the same parameters that are are typical for an for an L. A. Pd. Read out, we actually can reasonably fit this into a into a small channel with a relatively small power power envelope, and a very simple Monte Carlo shows that this can also give a
give an advantage in terms of in terms of timing resolution.
Luca Macchiarulo: Now this is an overview of the
Luca Macchiarulo: typical architecture that we're using in our chip where we have a sampling cells. This is a a capacitor array exactly like the Drs. For that does a a a group of sampling cell at the input and then periodically, groups of this and sampling cells are a are a copied into a still analog storage cells that that have their own comparators, and on demand the individual region of the storage cell can be a can be digitized, and then the process by the rest of the chipen.
Luca Macchiarulo: Here there's some parameters for some of the chips that i'm going to present. So there's a the input cells as a in this case are all 128. But the number of storage cell can be varied, and the mostly from the case of the are bark is because we have a a larger number of channels in our our V 4.
Luca Macchiarulo: There are 2. For
Luca Macchiarulo: who will this chips have 2 different approaches in the way that they're used? The Udc. Was was meant, was designed for slow rate experiments, and so effectively the way it works is that it fills up the entire, the entire array ways for a a ways ways for a trigger. When the trigger is issued, then tie ray. Oh, 4,090 is example per channel. There are 16 challenges in New DC. Are are converted and stored internally, and then they can be retrieved.
Luca Macchiarulo: Retreat for a through a serial interface.
Luca Macchiarulo: The other chips, which are probably more useful for some of the applications that we're we're interested in here, like the R bar to a a continuous acquisition, a kind of a streaming acquisition streaming operation, because the triggering can be done externally or or or via self trigger, but after a triggering the the chip in time, does the entire operation autonomously, and sends out the data.
Luca Macchiarulo: The digitized data to the to the outside world as soon as the data is ready, and there are mechanism in in our work to to make sure that we we are not, we don't, we don't incurring high in hide that time.
Luca Macchiarulo: Now, if you, if you more details on on some of the some of the chips the Udc. This is actually a slide that really goes very well with some of the with the previous talk on calibration, and shows it's also in this case it is very important to do to do a proper calibration of the voltages. Here you see that the blue, the black line shows a role, a a a a a. Of a new DC. Of the entire array of a channel of a Udc.
And and it's it's really really noisy to have 35, more than 35 counts rms. But after we apply the calibration constant in this case, as are calculated, not even not even with the with the
Luca Macchiarulo: with a ramp, or with with more than one sample, but we just with a simple sample, we can actually reduce the overall. The overall variation with the with the below 1.5, 2
Luca Macchiarulo: counts, rms. And this is this is another view of the same thing effectively. Here's the the pedestal, Val. What we call the pedestal, which are the kids. This calibration constant. And after we do that, the subtraction pedestal value, the average standard deviation for the individual sample is between one and 1.5.
Luca Macchiarulo: The other thing that we we are interested, because, as I mentioned before, these chips actually have their own comparator, and so they have much more sources of nonlinearity that a purely sampling architectural the Drs. For have
Luca Macchiarulo: we, we need to correct, or at least to know what our re linear range is, and in the case of the Udc, the linear range, which is the range where, after a a linear fit, gives a relatively small
Luca Macchiarulo: a range in the in the residuals is approximately between 0 point 3 and the 0 point 8, vol. The whole. The whole input range technical is between 0 point and and 1.2
Luca Macchiarulo: and one of the activity, for we we are. We are trying to plan for. The next version of this ship is trying to push this this range a little bit more probably to the to the left here by by by redesigning some of the some of the internal electronics
Luca Macchiarulo: in terms of analog bandwidth. There are 2 types of measurements here that have been done, one using a using tones and the other one using an fft, or a faster or a fast pulse, they sure they pretty much agree. Please disregard this this word spike, because it was a narrowing in in, read out.
and the overall 3 dB. Point is around the is around one gigahertz, which is a little bit lower than what we expected for this chip. and we are actually investing. We know that we found the an issue about in the in the way that the input distribution was done in the in the Channel, and as well. We we believe there are some contributions to the Board for this, but this will be as you as you'll see in other chips. This is actually better for a can be can be getting, can be a a.
Luca Macchiarulo: It can be much better than this.
Luca Macchiarulo: Another point which is pretty important. Channel. Timing evaluation for this ship, we did the with it some some experiments similar to the ones that where were shown before, in which we actually feed the
Luca Macchiarulo: A. A, a, a series of of of peaks, with the with known distances to different channels, and try to see what is the
Luca Macchiarulo: what is the jitter between channel and channel, and by doing a a correlation away from. So it's slightly different types of of a of timing of timing estimation that was shown before we we get to a relatively low jitter around 10 Pico second or so for the for with with, without any any further time in calibration, I will. I will show with another ship that this is actually consistent with the type of of the technology that is used.
Luca Macchiarulo: So our work uses the same 130 nanometer, pretty much the same type of channel, and and we found similar results. The oh, sorry! So this is. This is a duplicate of the same slides
Luca Macchiarulo: in terms of packaging this chip. Actually, can we? We actually use 2 packages, one with the 12 by 12 mm square that contains all the possible interfaces, including a parallel interface. But if we want to to reduce the the impact, the the footprint of the chip, we can actually use this smaller 9 by 9 mm that uses only the serial interface, which is what was being as being used in the some of the denser board that we're we we're making.
Luca Macchiarulo: and the the the just. To give you an idea the actual bare die is 5. It's around 5 by 5 mm. So potentially. This could also be a be reduced if it needed, by by using some some more advanced packaging techniques. We identified a bunch of issues on a Udc. V. One. So the power consumption is not as low as we would like is a 35 bill. What per channel we have a complete power model that is a consistent with what we measured, and we know where to touch, to reduce the power.
So we'll we'll. We'll be trying to do that in inversion in V 2 and the bandwidth. As I mentioned, we we will try to to get better, possibly by using an input stage buffer that shows a much better bandwidth in the in the Arbor V 4, and we also identified some artifacts as being studied, and and I I think we have some solutions for those.
Luca Macchiarulo: So the the Udc. For the applications that we're interested here is as the advantage of being relatively dense, 16 channels in in the 9 9 9 package and a relatively moderate power consumption, but it cannot really suffer a high rate because of the way of the way it is. It is built.
Luca Macchiarulo: moving on to the other, to the other, cheap also in 130 nanometer. This is our V 3. It's a. It has a very similar channel. But there the the external, the the digital control, is much more complicated, and allows self triggering. What we call aroi mode, which is a a patented mechanism by which which basically we, we we market in an individual portion of the storage array
with the its own trigger. And so we can use only we can digitize autonomously only those portion of the of the arrays to to save on bandwidth and to save on the on digitization time. And finally, we have a banking system that allows us to to switch from portion storage right to portion of storage array, so that while 1 one event is being has been digitized that we we are not losing other other events. It might be piling up at the same time.
This is a picture of a board. Last time that I presented. We just got the the the the new arbug before Chip. This is a picture of a board where we incorporated the Rv. The the the the over before, with these 8 channels shown here.
Some Some of the differences between the V 3 is that this is an 8 channel device. We have an input buffer that should allow us to to to go up to to around 2 gigahertz. We have an internal pl to simplify the clock in the previous one to require 2 or 3 different external clocks.
Luca Macchiarulo: and we extended. We corrected some digital bugs, and we we made sure that all the read out modes are orthogonal. It can be all combined together, some results, some initial results. We just started doing some evaluation in the last couple of months in terms of timing calibration. This is this timing Calibration is actually being made in a a fairly similar way, as the one shown in the previous talk. We, instead of using a a sine wave with basically just using this.
this, this fast pulse inputs. But we're still using that a a crossing over a a given threshold to estimate what is the the the width of the individual of the individual interval, and this is shown what is the width of the individual interval. There is some, some stitching problem at the end of the of the array. That shows why the the explains why we have a
Luca Macchiarulo: why we have this, this a very large variation for the last sample, the After we apply the correction for this you can see that the the initial distribution of for a for a pulse to pulse distance. Estimation goes down to around the a little bit over 1010 picosecond, which is consistent with what we did already with our V 3
in terms of bandwidth. We did try to estimate the bandwidth in a couple of different ways. One way was just to to feed tones and see what the with the bandwidth, his and the other ways, feeding a a fast pulse and and doing an fft of the polls. So, both on a on a, on a scope with the 2.5 gigahertz bandwidth, and on the signal coming from our chip.
Luca Macchiarulo: And I, if you use this 2 mechanism, you can see that approximately the the bandwidth is around the between 1.8 and 2 giga, which is more or less what we expected. This ringing is is being investigated, we believe, is due to some subtle interference effects on the on the storage or race. So it's a. And this is the reason why it doesn't really show up in the with the signal, with the with the single pulse.
Luca Macchiarulo: in terms of advantages and disadvantages of the arbark. The AR work has self triggering, streaming capabilities can potentially go up to to high rate and has that time free operation, and potentially can use a single reference clock, but it has a higher power consumption right now around. Actually, I can bring this down to around 60 million. What per channel, with some some fine tuning we just did, and a larger footprint
Luca Macchiarulo: the let me. Just. We quickly go through
Luca Macchiarulo: another couple of chips that we we have been working on. This is actually not probably not very useful for the lapd application, because it's too slow. The HD socks ship is a is a 64 channel meant to read out, I. Pm. R. A. And the idea is that this is a very, very dense read out where every channel effectively operates independently and autonomously, and can, and can, and can send the information potentially with some feature extraction on board of the chip
to the outside work. And and and these are these are the specifications for for for the for the version 2 of the chip, which is a true 64 channel device. So far we did the we did test on a 32 Channel device version. That's the there's a revisioning one that confirm more or less. The the performance that we expected did the the reason why I brought this up here. Is that not? Not because this is a necessarily useful for the lap Pd. Red out. As I said, this is
Luca Macchiarulo: one giga sample per second, which is probably too slow for for operation, but for the for the concept that allows us to to increase the the density of the individual chip, and to increase the the amount of channel that can be serviced.
Finally, this is this is more, much more of the prototyping stage. We have this concept of a HP sock, which is a chip. I didn't mention it here, but it's being done in a in a more advanced acknowledged 65 nanometers, and the idea in this case was to target. I'll get the pixel read out. So we wanted to to be much faster, and we also wanted to have an in an input tia which is embedded in this particular. In this particular device.
Luca Macchiarulo: the the the target structure here is that for an the individual pixel can operate internally a an extraction of charge and time, and the potentially in the on the same cheap. You can do some data fusion that can that can merge information for multiple pixel to extract positioning and and and timing information.
The Channel architecture is slightly different. The previous one. In this case we have only a single sampling array, so we can we can digitize only a short portion of our of our I mean only up to 128 samples, but the the advantages that this saves a little bit in in power, and allows a a a a a relatively fast operation. We still use a kind of a banking mechanism to avoid the to avoid the effect of
Luca Macchiarulo: of that time, and we actually have a little chip that is being fabricated, 1.5 by 1 mm. And right now we are designing a 4 Channel version as a stepping stone towards the full, the full chip.
Luca Macchiarulo: So
Luca Macchiarulo: concluding this the ideal Asic, that we, we, we, we believe it could be very useful for an L. A. Pd. Read out
Luca Macchiarulo: merges a characteristic from all these other chips from Udc. The dance, the possibility of having high density and moderate power from hard work, all the capability of autonomous and kind of almost to streaming capability Potentially, if very high density are is needed, can can borrow some, some, some some lessons from the HP. Sock.
Luca Macchiarulo: The the last part of the to the of of today. I just want to mention that we, as as I said at the beginning, we are not only interested in fabricating the chips we're trying to to make systems with them. So we are, as I already presented last time we we. We have 7, our works in a a relatively old project to read out the Gen. One La Pd. Called the Hyper Project, with that shows a fairly good channel to channel even across across the board.
Luca Macchiarulo: timing resolution. The the have boards, the smaller boards. We couple of our marks on it. We have a larger board that we are now. We have a we are being. We are being evaluating much more using the Udc. So it's in a 96 and 96 Channel board board board, read out, and for other project, using, and not it an older device, but that that could do a sampling at around 3 giga sample per second they for for another project the 8 of Project
Luca Macchiarulo: We're actually doing a a
Luca Macchiarulo: a 48 channel device that was meant me mostly to read out a a silicon silicon Pm.
Luca Macchiarulo: In in in conclusions. I want to just to summarize the say that the we we believe that way from digitizing can be a robust and flexible solutions for read out of high density La. Pd. And the and the current versions cover some of the La. Pd. Specs that we are interested in covering in terms of the the the updates of today. We believe that all these developments can have the potential to help it targeted. A link.
Ppd read out mostly by hybridizing the solution by putting together some some features from any of these. In one thing that we learned it is that for there's not a perfect ship for any application. We really need to kind of a modularly put together things that that can that can work for the for the specific application. And the also that optimized Board integration is essential for leveraging the
Luca Macchiarulo: both. The capabilities of this readout ships and the capabilities, the only Pps.
Luca Macchiarulo: And obviously we're looking forward to working with the community to try to develop a solution that is usable for for most people that are interested in this read out system.
Luca Macchiarulo: And and this concludes my talk. Sorry I was a bit long.
Alexander Kiselev: Thank you, Luca.
Alexander Kiselev: Let's see whether there are questions.
Alexander Kiselev: If not, I have 2 short ones, so just one is in the at least in the former times. It was not so easy to get evaluation boards from you
Alexander Kiselev: so right that recently the situation improved, and you actually descent like hard work based on to jail up. I mean, it's a right right now, for most of our Evaluation Board want us to go through a kyan, and it should be possible to to get evaluation board pretty easily.
Alexander Kiselev: Oh, so now it is going through, Ken. Okay. But you can. I mean, you can contact us directly, and we can. We can. We can handle that properly.
Alexander Kiselev: France. Please go ahead.
Franz Muheim: Yeah, Hi! Can you hear me? Really nice presentation. This is quite interesting.
Franz Muheim: Maybe I missed it, but i'm i'm just wondering, as far as I know.
Franz Muheim: in terms of what do you call rate. none none of the solutions you present would be able to cope with basically the 50 Nanoseconds stacked to at the Nhc.
Franz Muheim: You're mistaken.
Franz Muheim: Yes, correct. I mean you. We can't read the at the at the 50 50 nanosecond rate. That's that is correct.
Luca Macchiarulo: but the the question is, do you really need to read everything at 50 nanoseconds. So the the the question is at the level of the individual chat. What what is the rate at the individual channel level that if we need that that rate for the individual channel. Yes, I agree we can't. We can cope with that one.
Franz Muheim: Well, you you know there are going to be some areas in some detectors which have
Franz Muheim: let's call it sizeable occupants. Yeah, and let's. Let's just say 10 to give a number. So yes, you don't, you don't need everything but you it well, you you either need a long bu for
Franz Muheim: all you need to read out quite fast and and have a reasonable
Franz Muheim: what do you call it? Or or you can also reduce the the window. So so we we have a lot of different approaches to this. So the, for example, in the HD. Sock, One thing that happens is that
Luca Macchiarulo: every channel user can use its own every channel. One thing I didn't mention here every a. A. These chips have a a video discriminator at the for for for a every individual channel that can mark the position of a signal that passes a threshold.
Luca Macchiarulo: and that can be used to market position in the in the storage array for a for digitization, and if that if nothing is marked in the particular timing region, then the chip will not respond with, will not need to digitize, and will not need to respond with anything.
Luca Macchiarulo: So this is mostly taking care of the low occupancy cases effectively. In the case of very high occupancy we can really go towards a a, a, a, a system like the
Luca Macchiarulo: Channel architecture, like the HP sock, where we have a kind of a a short, a shorter ray. But that can be. It can be converted at a fairly large at a fairly fast rate, so we could potentially convert as fast as one to 2
Luca Macchiarulo: microsecond around that we can probably push it to around one microsecond, so we could potentially get up to a a one Megahertz rate with this type of architecture.
Franz Muheim: Okay, thank you. That's useful.
Alexander Kiselev: Yeah, Thank you, friends.
Alexander Kiselev: Matthew, you've had a question. So this looks really nice, and I particularly like the
Matthew Malek: this concept you've shown of of the hybrid ideal as taking the best of of all worlds from multiple other systems. As you probably know, we're in the process
Matthew Malek: of getting an Eval board to use with our our strip line L. A. Pd. For a a test bed we're building in the Uk. Underground.
Matthew Malek: You said at the beginning that your Us. Distributor now is can, and at the moment one of our Us. Partners is arranging with. These are for the email Board. But further in the future.
Matthew Malek: for a larger order than that for Europe. How would one go about ordering? I the I I don't know actually, if if if either is online today, at the moment it was, it was busy within that.
Luca Macchiarulo: Okay? So I i'm not entirely sure what the what, the what they actually apply. I'm. I know that these are was looking into a a broader distribution, and I mean, for now I think we can. We can arrange things directly with the with now. But obviously, if it's a. If it's a fairly large order, we will left to a something that will have to be arranged properly.
Matthew Malek: Okay, sounds good. Thank you. I i'll i'll. I'll, I'd suggest you to to to talk directly to ease about that
Matthew Malek: we'll do. And we're looking forward to getting our our email board. Thank you.
Alexander Kiselev: Okay, Thank you. Okay. So I think we need to move on.
Luca Macchiarulo: Okay, thanks.
Alexander Kiselev: Valerica. You are the next one.
Federica Oliva: Yes.
Federica Oliva: just a moment of
Federica Oliva: Can you see it? Full screen.
Federica Oliva: Yes.
Federica Oliva: so this is the outline of the talk. So first of all, I will give some a motivation to to use for the upgrade to reach the a Sub-detect, or the Lppd.
Federica Oliva: And then now we'll talk about the edinburgh setup and some programmable lppd measurement that we did and some measurements so that we have to do.
Federica Oliva: then I will show some some results in particular. The the first gain that they're great study and the time, resolution, the ultimate time. Resolution, study is is still also in in progress. But I will show you a a a measurement that that we did so far.
and then the future plan. So yeah, in in the lab.
Federica Oliva: Well, first of all, just to to to present a bit of the the the application of of the lapd for the upgrade to
at the moment there is a an upgrade one ongoing for the the Lsb. And it basically it's a a brand new director. But at the moment, and the the the around 3 is a is the second data. At the moment the we are taking data, and
Federica Oliva: and and we are also working for a. They are in the phase for the the upgrade. To that we will see the 2. You you, you you you you see here basically for the the upgrade to we foresee a a an increase of the luminosity of 5, 6 times. So this means that will be a really 100,
Federica Oliva: a really challenging environmental in particular for the photon detectors of they reach some of the that some of the directors that you can see here. It's there is a there is the rich one and the reach to in the layout of experiment.
Federica Oliva: So basically the main strategy is to add the the the timing information to the the rich sub-detector, and to reduce the pixel size.
Federica Oliva: And these these are these plots are a plot. So from a simulation for the current upgrade. Just to show you that, for example, if we take the if to map the equivalency of the rich one in the separate region, we foresee one
already for the upgrade, one Cuban, c. Nearly of about 35 40. This means that so, if we foresee increase of the luminosity, or integrated to the Minos of 5, 6 times. This means that we will reach 100% to the cube and see during the the upgrade to.
Federica Oliva: So it's said the the possible solution will be that timely doubt for the needs of our directors. You can see here, for example, it's a still a a, a a simulation similar to study this one. If we take a timeflow to one nanosecond, we are not able to distinguish the the rings, the the drinks of the the the
Federica Oliva: and if we take us a lot of the 100 people a second, though we are able to distinguish these these. So that's the reason why we are considering at the moment
Federica Oliva: the different technologies for the R. And D. And in particular to add the dynamic formation for for for the rich.
So basically these. These are the main technologies that that are considered for for the future. So other groups are testing, not as again so, and also also they the the Ma. Pmt's will be would be considered to that. To this this is a a technology that is used right now at the moment.
Federica Oliva: But for the future, probably we we we to to to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to to to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to.
Federica Oliva: in in the lab. We now in Edinburgh. So basically we have the so so it we. We all know that to the advantage to the the advantage of the Lpd is a really a lot time resolution. That's the reason why we are really interested in in in this technology.
Federica Oliva: So basically we have. We are. We we have by generation to generation to Lep, Pd. In Ediva, since or late 2821. We have a D. L ppd. 97 that you can see here in in these pictures this is a different side and the back side basically, the moment we we we still have this, I read out board directly provided by in comedy, the usual one with the day pixel size of a 25 mm pitch to be
Federica Oliva: so I would show some, some some results obtained with the with this read out mit Ctl: and so basically, this is a a list of the program, electricity measurements and some measurements that we did with the really Pd. 97 in the in the lab in any 101.
Federica Oliva: So at the the beginning of of course, we we tested the the we checked the Hv. And current trends, so to be sure that the the current absorption, the leakage current, was the day, the the the one that to also income Also, you know, in our in our that the report so before the shipment.
Federica Oliva: just to be sure that the the the detector was working through the room. So in our setup. Then we performed the our account study.
Federica Oliva: and as soon as we put in place a lesser source procedure, we measured the gain, and the the the gain was extracted that the measurement of of the game was instructed, though with a decaying digitize. That was a user that. It is a they, they can digitize it, but they desktop to one with the with, the with the 16 channels. So basically always there, there's for cheaper base the technology.
Federica Oliva: and for the time resolution I will show some, some, some results, but this time obtained with the a duck performed, obtained with the
a faster of a scope with the about tweet of up to 20 gigahertz and digitization rate up to 200,
128 to
Federica Oliva: at the moment. The current plan is is to basically we are designing in Edinburgh a custom pixelated board to improve the special resolution. So to low the pixel size down to 3 mm.
Federica Oliva: and there there are some partners so buttons also to it that we are. We are starting, but I will show you later, and another Another future plan now is the quantum efficiency study.
Federica Oliva: So basically, this is the the setup that we have the delay out of the setup that we have in a Edinburgh. Here you can see in the dark box we have the Lt. Pd. On the support.
Federica Oliva: We are basically connected to to Desktop H: we so a Hv. Supplies.
Federica Oliva: and in the dark box we have both. So a laser mount a a laser, mount a a laser mounted on on a on a stage stages that that that the displacement of the of the Laser source. So in the X and y position.
Federica Oliva: and it's a it's a it's a it's a fiber, a fiber coupled. And we we basically we basically the the laser, the laser driver, is a italic laser. If you go one laser with the a wavelength of 470 nanometer.
Federica Oliva: and with the parts with the full weighted of maximum of 70, because I go to, we use the
Federica Oliva: this can digitize that that, I said before, for the the game studies or for the timing studies, so they they the scope of a key site. So these are these are some pictures of of our our setup.
Federica Oliva: This is the a very first picture. Here you can see that today some, some, some cables, are not attached. It is just. It's just to show you the the the the setup that we have. So basically the this is the lay, the le Ppd.
Mit ctl. And and we we have the the laser mounted here on state. These are these stages in the Telos, the yeah, the displacement next, next, and why 101.
Federica Oliva: And then, outside the dark books, we have both the digitizer can and let's be supply, or the oscilloscope that we use for the the timing studies. So basically at the at the beginning with the form, the a kind of a comparison between the tickets current to be measured in the lab, and the one provided by income
Federica Oliva: and the we upset. But I quite. We'll observe the quite in an agreement between now between the measurement and the and the yeah, it's a just to to show you that to it's a they, the the trend that that that was already foreseen by by by in coma, changing the the the voltage
Federica Oliva: of the of the
Federica Oliva: going. Now to the measurements that we did in Edinburgh. As I said, the the game studies. They gain studies, and their account studies were performed with the they can digitizer with the the Gd. Did simply rate of 5 giga sample per second.
Federica Oliva: And the yeah, you can see an example of the the their accounts this is these are, of course, is a number of sample, but the time windows, or 200. Nanosecond, if we consider that it's sample, is or 200 people a second.
Federica Oliva: So basically we perform this study for for the they do that great versus the photoc with voltage for a fix in a D. And Cp. All that just to 850 volt.
Federica Oliva: and it's a it's a day they they the same it it. It was an agreement with the studies that were performed by the in coma before the shipment. Then we switch to to yeah, the to use the the the the laser. And here you can see a a signal of a a signal
Federica Oliva: acquired the always with the with the I can digitize that. It's a single photon now in a single for dynamic throne condition, setting a laser frequency of a 5 kilohertz. And yeah, I reported also the the the noise.
Federica Oliva: and it's that is plus minus 1 1 1 millionBasically then we extracted the the trend of the gain in for the number of photons electrons, of course, so versus the Ncp. Voltage, and it's it was the the trend expected.
Federica Oliva: This one was obtained. This a trend was obtained in the centre of a fixing the photocat with voltage. So at the 100 Volt and the center in the the the 1 1 one Pixel.
Federica Oliva: Then, talking about the time resolution we extracted is a time resolution using a these key site with the assembly rate of 120 giga sample per second.
Federica Oliva: which means that if we can see that this plot, this, this is the in number of sample, but to this it it's, it's it's it's sample is a a less. The the resolution for, for for example, is less than 8 picosecond.
Federica Oliva: So you yeah, you can see an enormous difference. So a huge difference between between now the the the PC. And I showed you before basically what we are doing now with the with. The signal is a up there in an online pedestal subtraction.
Federica Oliva: considering at the first to 200 simple, just to to center in in 0 the the the the the pedestal.
Federica Oliva: Then well.
Federica Oliva: the the laser 3 get basically. So this is a a a, a, a plot of the difference of the time of the signal, minus the time reference per provided by by directly by the the synchronization output of the trigger.
Federica Oliva: And we then now perform another, another, another gosh fit, and we extract basically the the the Sigma of these, the the Sigma of this distribution is our time resolution. So yeah, I'm: i'm reversing the the the studies we did
Federica Oliva: with the within a single for an electron condition with the Elizabeth frequency over 5 kilowatts
Federica Oliva: and the fixing the Ncp. Voltage at the 850 Volt: yeah, you can see that we did that. A kind of a a photo of a photo of the voltage scan. So so, studying the time resolution versus the photocat with voltage here. You can see that so we can. Now we can reach for a photocat with voltage up to 400 double that we can reach 82 per second. But this is still not corrected by the
Federica Oliva: If we waited on from the the the uncertainties of the introduced by by by the laser. The this is the they did the point corrected by the the, the, the the full weighted after maximum of a that our laser.
Federica Oliva: So talking about the the the plans that we have in Edinburgh at the moment, I said, we are using as a readout board the the the usual border from our from in coma with the 25 mm of pitch.
Federica Oliva: And now the the design is ongoing to to have a new customer customer, pixelated board decrease in the the sides of the of the of the of the of the pixel down a Webinar, a bit of a 3 billionmeter.
Federica Oliva: or, for example, we are considering also some other ideas for the for the pattern, for example, we could have, instead of over in 64 peaks let's say to by 8 pixels with the IP. So of 3 mm we can, for example, considering to have to to to study 8 by 8 pixels, with a a pitch over 2 mm.
Federica Oliva: or, for example, 8 by 4 pixels. So with the a piece of 2 by 4 mm to have a a rectangular pixel.
Federica Oliva: So this is a a work in progress, and our goal our AIM of for the the the this year is to bring this the the the the plan is to bring in in autumn the Lpd on Bim. Basically.
Federica Oliva: with this new Custom board that we are designing, and we will produce.
Federica Oliva: we can a couple the our device with the a. A track train made up of some facilities board a Pico, T. DC. And Lpgbt basically these. This is the the current plan for the the, the the reach out to for for for the next test beam.
Federica Oliva: So, in conclusion. we are already studying. This is a is still. This is already an R. And D. Phase for the LCD. Upgrade to, and we are considering as an application for the Lpd. They reach. They reach photon detectors, so that is, they did reach the the sub-detector of the of the of
Federica Oliva: we have the the tail a l ppd. 97 in the in the lab, that is currently in the desktop are currently ongoing, and we extracted the first, the compromising results as a
Federica Oliva: now in agreement with those extracted by income. We we extracted in particular, the we did the kind of the Council studies so, and of a game studies, and we extracted the the time resolution, but
Federica Oliva: also studies to achieve. But the ultimate time. Resolution is, studies are still ongoing in parallel we are Design is a custom board. The the the group is designing is a custom board, and we hope to bring the the Lpd 97 on Bim with the this new board.
Federica Oliva: So thanks a lot for this opportunity.
Alexander Kiselev: Thank you for the questions
Alexander Kiselev: Mark.
Mark Popecki: When when do you think the new board or the first new board will be ready for use?
Federica Oliva: Well, we we foresee a as a schedule. We we don't have a if it's scheduled at the moment. But to we plan to have a a a first, a first prototype, or this board in May to to start today the test in the lab
Federica Oliva: with the kind of integrated we we did with the kind of integrated board, let's say to to, to, to a a a kind of
Federica Oliva: in. In. In a sense we will, we will read out to these this pixels. So still we did. Yes, make on nectar. So we need the to to to have a kind of integration board.
Federica Oliva: And yeah in May, in May we will start to the the test. And then in September, October or October, we will bring in the director. Be
Mark Popecki: okay. It'll be interesting to hear the results in in the May and June.
Federica Oliva: Yeah, I will let you know.
Mark Popecki: Okay, thanks.
Alexander Kiselev: Don't Mark. A while you are online. So for this 97 is 80 pick a second something which we expect.
Federica Oliva: I I I have also the the the block that was, you know, probably in the backup slides I put. This is they. They deploy in the
Federica Oliva: in the report from a from income.
Federica Oliva: And basically you you yeah, you have to consider. These are 8,850. So these are this point with 120 people. Second.
Mark Popecki: So when we made this measurement, actually, we were using the laser that we have this, you're in a very bright mode, which which means that it the laser light can be on for like a 150 nanoseconds.
Mark Popecki: even though most of the light is coming out in some like 20 picoseconds, for with that, Max, there's still plenty of like lobes coming.
Mark Popecki: and I think that's the reason that we got such a large time variation.
Mark Popecki: So if we, if we had this back, we would
Mark Popecki: measure it with a demo one which is more Gaussian at 60 picoseconds full with half. Max.
Alexander Kiselev: Okay, thank you. So one thing I wanted to to to say is that
Alexander Kiselev: several groups by now built actually these pixelated boards
Alexander Kiselev: of like someone who is online. I think
Alexander Kiselev: so. Misha built one with Saberia recently. So there are a few popular, not mistakes, but a few things to to keep in mind.
Alexander Kiselev: If you want you, maybe want to contact contact the guys and ask them some questions, or maybe share the designs
Alexander Kiselev: just to avoid like cross-alk and reflections and things like that
Alexander Kiselev: just to save you time on iterating, maybe.
Franz Muheim: Okay. Who was the second person you mentioned?
Alexander Kiselev: So Mikhail.
Alexander Kiselev: who may be still online. who built a second board just recently.
Alexander Kiselev: I mean, we can take this offline. So if you okay, that 6 is offline.
Alexander Kiselev: Yes.
Franz Muheim: thanks.
Alexander Kiselev: Okay, welcome. Okay. Thank you, Federica? I I don't see any any other questions. So we have still 2 more talks.
Alexander Kiselev: Rob. You must be the next one. Right?
Rob Foster: Yeah, can you?
Rob Foster: That one.
Alexander Kiselev: Yes, please go ahead.
Rob Foster: Okay. So everyone I'm: I'm. Rob. I'm. A Phd. Student University of Sheffield
Rob Foster: and I'll be talking about some of the activities with Ipv as we've been doing in Sheffield, specifically focusing on this technique for multi photon reconstruction on the the generation One
Rob Foster: strip line.
Rob Foster: So just to start off the Uk is really increasing its involvement with with the ipads. We have 2 of these, Gen. One strip line
Rob Foster: I like P. But in Sheffield, one of which we've learned out to work University, so they can develop their own test. And one you just saw from Federica at Edinburgh. And then there's also a a second Jen to
Rob Foster: at Glasgow
that arrived fairly recently.
Rob Foster: And so the Uk. Studies are focusing on the characterization, as you saw in the previous talk at the moment. But the Sheffield, the only Pd. In particular, are also going to be.
Rob Foster: or are also software developing for for use in in neutrino experiments as well.
Rob Foster: So the motivation for this multi photon stuff that we're talking about is that's a
Rob Foster: I think, Matthew, My like sort of briefly mentioned that we're building this 30 ton what it rank off sector. It will be underground lab in the Uk. It's going to be very similar to any, I guess, and it's a, you know, a similar similar size. And using this just water rink off detection.
Rob Foster: And in these tools, detectives, we want to really precisely reconstruct every every photon, so we can get the best.
Rob Foster: the reconstruction of the event vertex.
Rob Foster: But on the script plan, if you did especially, this becomes really challenging. The more photons you add to the to the events you get at this problem. That's
Rob Foster: my what's being briefly mentioned in in his, in his talk about disambiguating these signals and trying to figure out which signals came from, for which photon.
Rob Foster: And so ideally, we want to have some kind of algorithm that can reconstruct photo hits on the Lfpd face across a range of photo. Occupancy is from from the single photon level up to, you know, maybe a 100 or so photons.
Rob Foster: And this becomes even more important
Rob Foster: as we potentially move from pure waterfield detectors to liquid scintillator, or or what are basically what's into layer basically anything with a higher highlight yield. You can run into these problems pretty quickly.
Rob Foster: As I just talked through the
Rob Foster: this, we they asked me to top these 2, and the talk box. We're using this the same can Drs: 4 based digitizer. It seems like basically everyone's using. So I was really interested to hear about the the talk on the
Rob Foster: they calibrate, calibrating these these chips that that into account. And we've been forming our own sort of characterization on the Pd. Like the gain and and and that sort of stuff.
Rob Foster: But one of the things I've been using is using this to inform simulations which I've been using to help sort of characterize this this reconstruction algorithm that I've I've mentioned.
Rob Foster: And so the results from the the characterizations are being put directly into these these simulations.
Rob Foster: And so what I've been developing is this: this waveform simulates that that allows me to take a
Rob Foster: simulated events. In this case I've been using rock pack as J. 4 based simulation toolkit, and so to simulate liquid into layer events with with with the Ipad geometry. This all 20 by 20. Send me a square, and this gives me a bunch of photon positions and times
Rob Foster: that the simulation then smears with the appropriate time from the time spreads and charge distributions.
Rob Foster: and I can then use these, this Monte Carlo information to then afterwards produce produce waveforms like produce, a simulated L. A. Pd. Response to to that to that event.
Rob Foster: And so it has a very basic model of child sharing involved, but no cross talk. And basically each photon the response to the IP for Each photon is just stuck together at the end to produce the sort of total, you know, to the total response to the other Pdc. From from a given event
Rob Foster: and noise is also added to make things more realistic.
so to show.
Rob Foster: Well, i'm discussing this is kind of a
Rob Foster: so these are the 28 strip lines, and then you know, 200 n a second. There's 4 position window, and this is like a single photon events, and so you can see that you get the charge sharing across a couple of strips.
Rob Foster: and and you can see that you know it's slightly closer to this neighbouring strips, and this neighbouring through, because it pulls us higher and you can central. I can find the position.
Rob Foster: and then, if you add the noise, it looks a bit more realistic. And then, if you look at the individual strip line, you get the sort of characteristic L. A. Pd. Shape pulse with the fast price time, and about a second wide or so.
Rob Foster: And so this is the sort of basic waveform thing that I've developed. And then, if you look at multi photon events. you start to see
Rob Foster: the kind of problem that you have in in these
Rob Foster: What trying to experience these multi-phos on hits is that you you get this sort of response. This, I think this is just 5 photons in this in this simulated event.
Rob Foster: And you have to start to figure out. Okay, where did the photons actually
Rob Foster: hit on here. So we want to have some kind of algorithm that can
Rob Foster: take a an input like this. The response from the Ipv and actually try and figure out where the photons stroke on the LGBT face. and i'll see as as you add noise, this gets more and more challenging.
Rob Foster: So. The the method I'm following is as follows: very closely on from a paper that Glen Jocker and my Wetstein, and and others. I wrote a few years ago now.
Rob Foster: and i'm kind of trying to revive it, and see how how appropriate it' be for you and
Rob Foster: in button, and then the other. What drank or experiments. And this idea of using this deconvolution based approach where you have some template waveform which is shown on the on the right here of like basically the single photon response
Rob Foster: of the Ipv. And you then use this as kind of like a point spread function to go in and deconvolve the entire IP response with with this template
Rob Foster: and this should hopefully hopefully help you disambiguate and separate out individual phot on his from the sort of mass of of of peaks that you get from a multi photon event.
Rob Foster: And so for real data, this would be some averaged, you know, like like an average of thousands of single thought on a single P. What waveforms
Rob Foster: for the simulated day all the way from the preceding a functional form Night, I know, so I can just sort of reproduce it. And and it's from the simulation data.
Rob Foster: We still see a a sort of best case scenario, and that's what I'm going to be sort of showing today is just the best case scenario.
Rob Foster: So, as an example. here we have. You know you have both sides of the strip line that you read out. This is an event with all 5 hits, so you can see quite clearly
Rob Foster: always a looking event like this. It's quite simple to see where the photons hip, as you add more and more. It's because it's more and more challenging. But as an example.
Rob Foster: so we have these 5 H on the left and right size.
Rob Foster: and then you perform a deconvolution. This shows like on a single strip what the deconvolution actually performs, and the oranges after the convolution, and you sort of maintain all the
Rob Foster: so of characteristics of the post. You maintain the fast rise time, so you can still get good timing of it. But you really flatten
Rob Foster: all of the noise on the on the strip. and you can kind of see in the heat maps that you know you get all this sort of like check it forward pattern on here from from the noise, and that really it's all gets planned.
Rob Foster: and then you have a really easy time finding every peak just using some kind of local maximum. Find that.
Rob Foster: And then you find your 5 peaks really simply
Rob Foster: and because we're working on the strip lines you get. You have the extra challenge of Not only do you have to, you know, deconvolve and find your peaks, but you have to actually match up your peaks on your left to right side, which again, in this case is fairly simple. You can kind of just look at each one, and just kind of judge. But as you add more and more, this becomes really quite complicated.
And so again, you want to have some kind of a great way of doing this.
Rob Foster: and we do this, using the sort of likelihood based approach where you know this
Rob Foster: well. So every every every peak that you find has some exposition which is so at the time in the acquisition window. Some y position which is itself, which strip it on it's it's voltage value. So
Rob Foster: HP. Can be described by these 3 values. And then using this, you can kind of creates a likelihood to judge from like a selection of left peaks and selection of right peaks on the side of the Lb. How likely those peaks are to be correlated with, so to to to come from a for a single phone on a pen, basically.
Rob Foster: And so the Pdf. Should be, I think, fairly intuitive. The strips have some characteristic signal propagation velocity. And so you know that if you're
Rob Foster: if a left peak and a right peak is separate in the acquisition window by more than the time of it takes to trouble the entire stripped, and there's very little chance they're going to be from the same origin.
Rob Foster: But you know I' a much greater chance if the within that time window.
Rob Foster: and then likewise, or in a similar way, the the closer they are in position, the they are in amplitude on the left and right size of the strip line. The more likely those peaks are to have originated from the the same original original photon.
Rob Foster: So basically you can create some
Rob Foster: some matrix of your left peaks and your on your right peaks, and you can just go down picking the maximum like to put value until You've matched up all your peaks, or until the light is too low, and they you have some some unmatched so much peaks.
Rob Foster: and then, once you've done that you can then actually, before your reconstruction, actually find the X and Y and the time in the
Rob Foster: on, the Lp itself, and for the straight lines, you know the the exposition you've just, which is so along a straight line you just find, by taking a difference from the left and right
Rob Foster: peak time I use some constant fraction Discriminator. I think about 25% polls, height or something.
Rob Foster: and then
Rob Foster: across strip lines you can just centroid across a few neighboring strips, and I guess you know why position.
Rob Foster: And then the time I take the average to the left and right times that I found from the original position, calculation on the concentration discriminator.
Rob Foster: And so what I've done is so simulate a few different scenarios. So this sort of single photon scenario, so obviously with a single photon. You're in the easiest case, and you get very.
Rob Foster: very good good resolution. Few millimeters, and why it's less than a millimeter.
Rob Foster: And I this efficiency as well. How many, how many photons we actually reconstruct. This is how many you see, and it's basically a 100 cent for the single photons.
Rob Foster: And then the real challenge comes when you add more and more photons. How do these resolutions degrade? And you can see that you kind of expect that your X and Y resolution of the reconstructed photon position on the Ipd
Rob Foster: gets worse and worse, as you add more and more photons.
The time resolution also degrades because you this is the sort of the single photon time resolution, I guess, of the you know. You're comparing the Mc. Phot. On time to the
Rob Foster: to the reconstructed time. So
Rob Foster: you know you typically you just pick the the time resolution to decrease as you get your sort of root of thing. But you know we're not reconstructing cluster times here. It's just the it's the Mc Phot. On time.
Rob Foster: And most importantly, you actually lose a ton of efficiency as you increase your photons. So by the time you get to 100 photons only actually reconstructing about 30,
So this is very much still work in progress. There's definitely, I think, work that can be done to
Rob Foster: to improve this as well Fine tuning that can be done in the in the dec convolution process. But then, just to show kind of example of a 100 photon event, and like a bit hard to see his hem at the top. But
Rob Foster: so this is a liquid into layer Events where I've, you know, created a 100 photons from liquor scintillator, and because it's because of the properties of Intel and most of the hits happen in a very short amount of time, and you get a few hits in the tail as well. So this kind of shows you the challenge that you really have
Rob Foster: is that you get this kind of mess of a hem, and you have to try and figure out where the photon is actually struck. and so on. Here we have the time and the acquisition window
Rob Foster: and the vertical position on the Ipd, and you can see that when the photons sort of the blue dots of the Mc. Photons and their crosses, or whether reconstructed, you can see that when they're nicely separate in time, you basically reconstruct perfectly. But as you cluster more and more hits together, you start to just sort of reconstruct the
the clusters rather than the individual hits, as the disambiguation starts to fail when the pulses of this close together.
Rob Foster: And now here you have the actual real X and Y position, but it's been reconstructed by the photons actually were.
Rob Foster: So
Rob Foster: this is kind of been a quick, quick summary of the
Rob Foster: to sort of I've been working on for these multi photon events. The reconstruction actually was quite nicely in in most sort of lower
I'm. Still not 100 and certain in sort of sectors like Annie, and like the one being developed to Bobby. How many photons we really expect to see in a typical event on an L.
Rob Foster: Because I would definitely help to inform by this
the direction this algorithm gets developed in.
Rob Foster: and we see this sort of decreasing efficiency for the resolution. Well, the the decrease in the of the reconstruction, as you add more and more photons, as you'd expect.
Rob Foster: I'm currently working as far as I get sample sample right business Drs for. But you know we may move to other
Rob Foster: of the potential digitizers like the Ps. That, and he uses 10 giga samples, and we saw the talk from nail you about that
Rob Foster: digitize as well, and so maybe higher sample rates might help more with this.
Rob Foster: and i'd also like in the future to sort of do a similar
Rob Foster: test. But with the pixel, I ipd the Gen. To Ipbd to see whether we even need this algorithm at all if we have the gen to, and we, you know, use pixels rather than rather than strip lines.
Rob Foster: But that's yeah, that's that's in my talk. So thank you.
Alexander Kiselev: Thank you.
Alexander Kiselev: That's interesting. So Well, other people are waiting.
Alexander Kiselev: So this last line here you don't necessarily need to use jam, too. So in principle you can use
Alexander Kiselev: something like Hrpd and DC. Couple of Hrpd. which is also.
Alexander Kiselev: and there is no window signal there, right? But what I also think is that if our exercise with tech dram succeeds. and one can shape
Alexander Kiselev: the am not
Alexander Kiselev: plate up in some, you know, in almost every way
Alexander Kiselev: customized for a particular experiment.
Alexander Kiselev: So this also can be of interest, because, instead of pixels. In principle you can have shorter strips. and then, somehow, all your machinery would apply. But so the Channel count will be
Alexander Kiselev: much smaller than in in a pixelated case. But if you see that your accum is not is too high
Alexander Kiselev: for full length strips. so one can probably cut them in in in pieces and increase the channel count only like 2, 3 times. But to reduce the effective occupants here
Alexander Kiselev: to the, to the, to the limit which is needed.
Rob Foster: Okay, yeah, that that that's really interesting.
Alexander Kiselev: Mark
Mark Popecki: Rob, Are you you planning to?
Mark Popecki: Are Are you planning to try testing
Mark Popecki: your reconstruction by you? Say using 2 lasers of fibers or something to
Mark Popecki: deliberately put photons at known locations on that a strip line, and then see if you can reconstruct it.
Rob Foster: That would be a great test. Yeah. So this is all simulate. I I forgot to mention that. Yeah, I I would love to do some tests with the real. you know, real real data.
Rob Foster: Yeah, I would love to do that. I just haven't quite figured out how. Yet I know. I I think, when I was at the income workshop. We had a brief
Rob Foster: look into doing something similar. But yeah, I I i'm, i'm figure out how to set up that experiment yet
Alexander Kiselev: I think you can use a split. It will be cheaper.
Rob Foster: Yeah, I think we
Rob Foster: Yeah, it is something that I would like to do. Yeah.
Alexander Kiselev: okay, Thank you, Mark, and thank you, Rob. I don't see any other questions.
Alexander Kiselev: So now our last presentations presentation on the agenda.
Alexander Kiselev: Rory, please
Alexander Kiselev: bring your slides
Alexander Kiselev: online.
Rory Edwards: Okay, hopefully, you can all see this screen.
Alexander Kiselev: Yes.
Rory Edwards: okay, great. So hi I'm. Rory. I'm. Phd: student at the University of Work.
Rory Edwards: the any experiment.
Rory Edwards: So what this is is pretty much an overall summary of, or an overview of, the independent dance box
Rory Edwards: set up. The we have set sets over a semi lab with an Ipd
Rory Edwards: and the overall software that goes into analyzing the data that comes out of it.
Rory Edwards: So just start off with the experimental setup. So
Rory Edwards: we use the the Any. P. Sec. Electronics. So each L. A. Pd. Is read out by 2 a/C. DC. Cards, and this the process that each L. A. Pd. Goes through
Rory Edwards: before it all for us deployed. Each of these cards has 5. The psect chips with 6 channels per chip with each of the channels digitizing away from
Rory Edwards: is run out to an a/C cards, which also also does some other magic which then sends it on to a raspberry pi, or any other computer really doesn't have to be that for storage.
Rory Edwards: So we've got this schematic.
Rory Edwards: The data flow and the and our dark room set up. So we have our
on the.
Rory Edwards: and those are physically attached to the back of it.
Rory Edwards: as well as this trigger board.
Rory Edwards: so the trigger board can be used when it's running in is self triggering mode. Otherwise it's not used. but self-ering mode is how it's used when it'll be deployed in the experiment, but that we don't have to use it that way in the dark room
Rory Edwards: if you will see them.
Rory Edwards: An external trigger, which is just
Rory Edwards: a pulse generator sending signals to a pickup board.
Rory Edwards: It also send some other signals. It sends a fake beam gate to the when that's high, then we can take data. It also drives our picosecond laser, which is in the dog box with it
Rory Edwards: as a set for that sort of goes through to this raspberry pi which runs the entire data acquisition sort of operation.
Rory Edwards: same.
Rory Edwards: you know. So that's how we collect all our data really
Rory Edwards: analyzing it.
Rory Edwards: It's sort of split into a few different broad steps. So this is all up. Implemented with the tool analysis. Software has been, say, framework managed to ske up by the logo, but that this is the the the software that Annie uses for
Rory Edwards: pretty much everything. Certainly analysis related, and much of the other software as well.
Rory Edwards: So first of all, the data is, go through some pre processing which is passing the raw data that can take a few different forms depending on which way you would like to store the data. It can be stored as raw Ascii, or or it can be stored as a a in a binary format.
Rory Edwards: And there's a slightly different way of reading both of those in we subtract any of the pedestal values which are to do with the p-set chips
Rory Edwards: it time aligns with signals, and then it subtracts the baseline from the waveforms itself.
Rory Edwards: Does that buy, and fitting a well, taking a histogram of all the values in the waveform, fitting a Gaussian to that, and then subtracting that from the entire waveform.
And then it goes through this simple pulse analysis.
Rory Edwards: So the best way to see what it is, but it. It finds pulses in the role waveforms just with a time of a threshold method. You can adjust parts of that within
Rory Edwards: the analysis sort of configuration files before you run it, and it'll save all of those.
Rory Edwards: There's also a to pulse analysis.
Rory Edwards: which is a slightly more complex technique of forming a fast Fourier transform of the signals to move any high frequency noise.
Rory Edwards: and then it also identifies pulses with a constant fraction, discrimination, method rather than a time of the threshold method, or this is saved. Between all of these as well, there is some clustering which goes on to try and resolve to
Rory Edwards: individual photon hits so, as well as the pulse data there is being saved. There are date saved
Rory Edwards: on these hits themselves, and also on the larger scale of
Rory Edwards: so times of of each event, and then also down to final levels of rather than just a pulse, but also just strip lines and and any other things we want, and this was just so. You downs a root file.
Rory Edwards: So this is an example of of some of the outputs
Rory Edwards: that we can look at.
Rory Edwards: So this is from L a Pd. 63 before it. It it sort of went in.
Rory Edwards: but this was these were some voltage scans that we took, so
Rory Edwards: the pulse is just one of the variables we can take. This is our dimensionless gain variable, I think, unless it's gone lost. Okay, yeah. So I did have another slide showing one of the other variables, but that seems I seem to put the wrong one on.
Rory Edwards: But we've got the pollsite. We can also use the maximum amplitude in which is in terms of an actual charge. And these are more of these sort of
Rory Edwards: pulse-related. Variables I was talking about hit, variables.
Rory Edwards: and you can also look at individual strip lines or across the whole IP as well.
Rory Edwards: So it's a few sort of.
Rory Edwards: I guess. Yeah, useful takeaways from this also next steps that that could go onto it.
Rory Edwards: But first and foremost, the Annie Lpd test stand is is great for training newcomers and new students to the I experiment in new to La Pds. In general
Rory Edwards: case in point being me, I don't know slightly more
Rory Edwards: after working with this test, and then I did before. and
Rory Edwards: we can also use this as a as a base for and analyzing the data that will be coming out the increasing amount of data. They'll be coming out of
Rory Edwards: Ivani's deployed lap Pd. System that will involve changing some of the output formats to match the overall any date format data structures
Rory Edwards: here, building from tank data as opposed to laser data, we and that will involve.
Rory Edwards: I think.
Rory Edwards: complicated process, and which i'm sure you've had loads about and integrate in the activity information with the other subsystems. So the Pmt's in here on range to to in order to get some
Rory Edwards: useful physics results and really leverage that potential.
Rory Edwards: And finally, this is also replicated. The any expertise and lessons learned to bring back with me to the Uk. Into into Warwick with the test down that we're setting up here. which is, is.
Rory Edwards: can be phenomenally useful and doing
Rory Edwards: so. Yeah, that was just a short talk, Short summary of what we got out of that.
Rory Edwards: Yeah, any questions.
Alexander Kiselev: Thank you, Rory.
Alexander Kiselev: So since we start having more and more of this data analysis talks calibration, so maybe somebody takes care to
Alexander Kiselev: create a shared repository where people can post pieces of code, so that
Alexander Kiselev: you know everybody could make use of them, not only in the Uk. But
Alexander Kiselev: elsewhere
Alexander Kiselev: Look up, please.
Luca Macchiarulo: Yes, thanks. Yeah. The question about the yeah, exactly. The calibration procedure You the you say that the second step that we're making this after the first roll. Cat where you're identifying the polls is
Luca Macchiarulo: is basically doing an fft of the signal doing a assume, probably using some form of low-pass filtering, and then going back to the time domain. Did you try to analyze to see what happens to some of the
Luca Macchiarulo: some of the facing formation that you lose with that, because the the signal you're looking at is is pretty fast, anyway. So there, there's the risk here, actually
Luca Macchiarulo: disturbing a little bit of phases of the component that might might have an importance in the in in the estimation of timing. So i'm wondering whether you had the you had a way of analyzing and and fine-tuning that filter that you're using
Alexander Kiselev: that's a great question. So I almost wanted to ask the same.
Rory Edwards: Yeah, that is a good question, and I don't know.
Rory Edwards: Yeah, that's a good question.
Luca Macchiarulo: I mean, you have all the machinery. So I think that you probably can change the parameters of the filter, and and also use no filter at all. And then see what is the You're probably going to have a
Luca Macchiarulo: best possible bandwidth, or to to consider right. That will give you the best results that that's gonna be interesting, I think.
Rory Edwards: Yeah, yeah, I don't indicate it in his talk of sorry. Go ahead.
Alexander Kiselev: Okay. So Rob showed in his in his talk that the the leading edge that is kind of
Alexander Kiselev: the same, I mean, has the same slope of time after the same a 50. If I understand character. it was. What was that Vinner Filter, I think. which is pretty much the same. I 50, back and forth into the Time Domain.
Alexander Kiselev: and somehow the pulse looked the same.
Alexander Kiselev: So maybe it's it's not that it's not a problem.
Rob Foster: It it my experience. It's a quite a fine tuning to find the
Alexander Kiselev: the right sort of yeah, the right filter doesn't, just destroy the post completely.
Rob Foster: So i'm sure if yeah, before we look through some.
Rob Foster: Yeah. So it's right over a few different forms of the Ft: filter. Then there will be some optimum. That
Alexander Kiselev: other questions.
Alexander Kiselev: I don't see any. Thank you, Rory. Other topics to discuss
Alexander Kiselev: today.
Alexander Kiselev: So then, then, let me thank everybody who was present, and especially everybody who contributed.
and with their talks I think we stick to the same
Alexander Kiselev: scheme to the same periodicity.
Alexander Kiselev: and have the next the next workshop in half a year from now.
So one thing I wanted to mention is that
Alexander Kiselev: we did set up this L. I. Pbd. Of mailing list.
Alexander Kiselev: and there was not that much traffic, if at all, in the last of a year. But in principle, if people have
Alexander Kiselev: anything to share.
Alexander Kiselev: so Don't be shy to to post to this main list.
Alexander Kiselev: and so that everybody knows what's what's going on, so that we we have more exchanges than once every
Alexander Kiselev: every half a year.
Mike Foley: Alexander, this is Mike Foley.
Mike Foley: I I recall in the last one, or or even in the first one, that
Mike Foley: getting all of the users together to help maybe fine tune or tweak, or lead us in a direction to a
Mike Foley: unified design.
Mike Foley: you know, so it could be used across, you know, many, many different avenues in here in different projects, and I didn't know we were still talking about strip line. We're still talking.
Mike Foley: you know, capacity coupled. And now we have the Hrpd coming in with both capacity coupled
Mike Foley: and we're. As you know, we've been doing a lot of design work trying to fine to the the next generation of direct directly coupled
Mike Foley: so any overall comments toward that end of trying to unify a design, or at least
Mike Foley: get it down to something that's only one or 2, one sort of say 4.
But I don't actually see this happening, because the applications are pretty different. So
Alexander Kiselev: in in in some cases you want to minimize the channel account, For instance.
Alexander Kiselev: At the same time Don't lose the special resolution, and if your occupancy is small, then of course, the capacity of you coupled and design is a way to go
Alexander Kiselev: if you don't want to stick to the strip line, of course. So if you want to have something pixelated, so if your application, like in look at York assumes very high occupancies per event.
Alexander Kiselev: There is no other way
Alexander Kiselev: other than to go to very small, very fine pixelation came decent couple from.
Alexander Kiselev: I don't know so general design principle. Principles, of course, can be the same
Alexander Kiselev: so like where to put high voltage, connections and and things like that. But
so I think the more people you know, once once we have a design, so we can post it.
Alexander Kiselev: And then so tell people on this list that this particular modification is is going to be produced. Let's say in this quantity.
Alexander Kiselev: and if somebody has, you know, has something to say, so then people say.
Mike Foley: and and as a commercial supplier of this, it's. it's good for us to
Mike Foley: to to know these things, because we can't be all devices and sensors to all people, and you know we certainly like to streamline our our fabrication process as well as be accommodating to to some things like that so I appreciate that answer.
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): Well, first of all, this.
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): what is needed? It's done within a a. Because
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): we have now a well-defined project. Maybe it's a sub project inside our detector.
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): maybe a second one, and we are trying to a the same specification.
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): This is our current Bedford concerning the worldwide
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): community.
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): I would imagine that at this
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): still be application, which are much more comfortable with capacitively coupled pixelized planes.
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): But it's Alexander and that line the The
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): The differences between these 2 devices can be kept limited.
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): and in particular, after that one is developed up to the end, and becomes the
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): used
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): on a large scale in an experiment. This will also
Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN-Trieste): have a driving meaning within the community.
Alexander Kiselev: Oh, Craig. thank you. So there.
craig: yeah, I mean, I just want to so make an analogy to
the technology has been around for
craig: 60 years or so.
That's for the multiplier tubes which
craig: you know, when they first came out. Of course they they wanted to all sizes and shapes that we were just
craig: well.
craig: but eventually, you know, kind of midterm or way there. There were certain.
craig: you know standard sizes. I mean. Everybody, of course, wants a detector that's optimized to their own particular experiment, just like we talked about the electronics. There's no one
craig: one ship that fits all needs. So there are always going to be some so customization. But I think you know the
craig: the way to to of it is to come up with a few
craig: compatible with column
craig: the standard sizes that that that you could make it. Certainly one size isn't going to at all. There's that's pretty clear. But start off with a few that then people take that
craig: it's more. Let's see.
craig: constrained, unless they are willing to to spend a lot of money for development, and then
they design their experiment around that I mean
craig: rather the other way around designing the detector around the experiment. They say. Well, they come in
craig: 10 cm Square is 20 cm square. something in between
craig: basically all the same, or similar properties. But the
craig: then people realize that that's what they have to. But yeah.
craig: pretty well. Fire tubes evolved for a long time, and now you can get them in all sizes and chase. But this is
craig: much, really, really.
craig: but I think I would think, starting with a few
craig: to get a consensus. So we would with the optimal sizes, may be, and starting with one or 2
and see if people can work with that.
Mike Foley: A excellent point, Craig. And you know, as as we've seen here in the the internal strip line
Mike Foley: is is really only found a couple of homes, and the the community, and mostly shown even here, has been leaning toward the capacity coupled version of the La Pd.
Mike Foley: So the smaller Hrp. The capacity coupled this is a relatively should be more or less the same. although focusing on the smaller forum cps.
Mike Foley: But the exciting news is going to be when we can start doing these directly coupled. You know it's and get that moving, you know. If if tech comes through.
and then we can make these things and and
Mike Foley: show how they work and be able to tile them
Mike Foley: together and and hook up the proper electronics with with certain read out boards, as Alexander was showing.
Mike Foley: I mean, that's that's the next exciting thing for for us.
Alexander Kiselev: I think that if we succeed with this exercise we we's where we're from.
and then standardized things like high voltage connections, and you know, optimize the active area
Alexander Kiselev: and demonstrate that one can build a custom. alloc base plates, and have a reliable interface to to the external asing board.
Alexander Kiselev: So this would be already enough, or pretty much enough for any other experiment like like I see
Alexander Kiselev: to use the same optimized sensor, but just customize the
Alexander Kiselev: the base plate and and the PCB. Hopefully
Mike Foley: we have a challenge ahead of us, that's for sure.
michael Minot: and of course, which might not be so obvious to the end. User but the like follow is well aware internally. Here at income we are consolidating the skew, if you will.
michael Minot: We're working very hard to transition away from glass towards Ceramic, that well ceramic tiles
michael Minot: that ceramic is more challenging from a
michael Minot: ceiling point of view because of the cte differences. But as Lexi showed this morning, we're making excellent progress in that and over time
michael Minot: they will all be ceramic. We're also moving away from Boros silicate windows to.
michael Minot: you know, consolidate around exclusively. So there are a lot of internal kinds of design changes that
michael Minot: are becoming more the main screen. So it will take time. But I I think we're going to
michael Minot: over time. Have some of that standardization.
Alexander Kiselev: Thank you, Michael.
Alexander Kiselev: Any other concluding remarks.
Alexander Kiselev: I don't see any hands.
Alexander Kiselev: So I think we, I think we conclude this meeting. Now the recordings will be posted.
Alexander Kiselev: and I mean talk to you, and half a year from now. But hopefully, there will be some exchange over there
Alexander Kiselev: mailing list in between.
Alexander Kiselev: Thank you, everybody.
Alexander Kiselev: and have a have a great evening, or brace
Alexander Kiselev: a great rest of the day.
Alexey Lyashenko: Thanks, Alexander
craig: Bye.
Alexey Lyashenko: bye, bye.