TIC meeting - Cooling

Monday 24 Feb 2025, 09:00 → 11:05 US/Eastern

Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN, Trieste)

Technical and Integration Council Meeting

Join Zoom Meeting

https://cern.zoom.us/j/9374314394?pwd=YTFjZjFGcXptMG13cGFQYWFQOWdrZz09

Recording: https://youtu.be/YfzZPAE7F8Y

communications:

silvia: pre-TDR timeline and strategies

preserve the main goal: pre-TDR by end of 2025

detector chapter of version 1 will be fully reviewed by TC office by end of March.
physics chapter of version 1 will be reviewed by SP office by end of March.

version 2 due mid-july (around the collab meeting)

end of july: ed-board formed: silvia + 3-5 additional people.

preTDR 2.1 by early december 2025.

 

now considering rule set for ePIC analysis and technical notes, how to preserve on Zenodo etc.

ePIC detector publications:

dedicated volume/issue in NIMA or JINST for ePIC pre-TDR (adjacent) papers under consideration. Will need to provide editors.

Questions:
Jeff Landgraf: using same overleaf for updates?
answer: yes. maybe we plan to tag a version before additional changes are made.

oskar: CERN testbeam status:

no draft schedule updates received by Oskar from CERN TB coordinators - thankfully kept updated by Hwi-Dong Yoo. draft schedule v.0.8. showed: MPGD beam time removed without replacement.

BIC, LFHCAL times are OK, dRICH beam time is too early for full prototype, no MPGD time is significant issue.

Oskar will try to communicate with CERN TB coordinators more.

 

 

Presentation: Andy Jung on cooling concepts in ePIC

Refer to slides for details, very short overview summary (by OH):

• ePIC is currently based on air cooling (inner SVT, some of the far outer systems) and water (or similar liquid) cooling with room temperature liquids.
• air cooling necessarily needs to not only get cold dry air in, but also needs to get warm air out - which could potentially heat up surrounding detector units.
• water cooling is (relatively) simple, but often has significant material budget impacts - it makes no sense to optimize e.g. the TOF mechanics to the absolute lowest material possible CF foam and then run copper pipes through everything.
• The LHC option: two-phase CO2 - great for ~-30C temperatures, low mass, technologically difficult.
• Single phase CO2 might be attractive: mature technology from e.g. soda can cooling in vending machines, high pressure (60-100bar), but low diameter pipes possible. not as versatile as two-phase CO2, but simpler and sufficient for less demanding applications.
• It all depends on the material budget needs. The current stage is the best time to discuss technology choices that can reduce material budget significantly. Material budgets will only go up the more realistic the detectors become.

Q:
Silvia:
for co2 2phase: low temperature (-10, -20c), risk of condensation.
immediate need for continuous flow of dry nitrogen (or similar dry air or whatever) through whole detector.

Andy:

yes, needs continuous dry air flush, depending on dew point etc.
in case of CMS: 5mm PEEK tube for dry air intake in CMS is all that's needed. (at however fairly high pressure and flow rate)

Silvia:
pipes needed to bring in coolant, some bad experiences were had with water and copper pipes.

andy:
haven't had water cooled experience in a while, someone else needs to comment. 

 

elke:
no immediate needs to go to cryo temperature right now (as CERN experiments do because of radiation damage mitigation)
ePIC is on surface - weather/dew point variations will be much stronger than deep underground LHC and HERA experiments. 
has room temperature transcritical co2 cooling been done in particle physics?

andy: no, but industry standard e.g. in soda vending machines

elke: is it smart to go towards co2 cooling? introduces risk and R&D needs
andy: really depends on material budget needs
elke: need updated tof power budget numbers.

ernst:
please update slides (open questions on slide 7) to reflect status of SVT power loads before uploading slides.

gerard:
I don't understand how "room temperature" CO2 can be feasible at reasonable pressures... It was mentioned pressure would be lower for warmer operation but I think that sounds wrong

andy: likely i messed up the numbers. compressor used in soda vending machine goes up to 100bar (andy ran at 60ish)

elke: very high pressure cooling systems require extra space for expansions/step downs etc.
need the complex analysis of overall system constraints

plan to reschedule another cooling talk in four weeks.

 

elke:
need a TIC meeting with all DSLs present, all DSLs should fill out current estimates for power loads in excel sheet provided by Dan Cacace

silvia (et al):
TC office will push for DSLs to enter updated power load information into common sheet.

Dan Cacace:
please let [me] know what else is needed in the power budget sheet.

09:00 → 09:05 Communications¶

Speakers: Matt Posik (Temple University), Oskar Hartbrich (Oak Ridge National Lab), Prakhar Garg (Yale University), Silvia Dalla Torre (INFN, Trieste)

TIC_20250303.pdf

tic_beam_updates.pdf

09:05 → 09:20 DSC communications¶

Speakers: Alexander Jentsch (Brookhaven National Laboratory), Alexander Kiselev (BNL), Brian Page (Brookhaven National Laboratory), Carlos Munoz Camacho (IJCLab, CNRS/IN2P3), Ernst Sichtermann (Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory), Friederike Bock (ORNL), Grzegorz Kalicy (CUA), Hwidong Yoo (Yonsei University), Jaroslav Adam, Kondo Gnanvo (Jefferson Lab), Krzysztof Piotrzkowski (AGH UST), Laura Gonella (University of Birmingham), Dr Leszek Kosarzewski (Ohio State University), Marco Contalbrigo (INFN Ferrara), Maria Zurek (Argonne National Laboratory), Megan Connors (Georgia State University), Miguel Arratia (University of California, Riverside), Nicholas Zachariou (University of York), Oleg Tsai, Satoshi Yano (Hiroshima University), Dr Simon Gardner (University of Glasgow), Stefan Bathe (Baruch College, CUNY, & RBRC), Sylvester Joosten (Argonne National Laboratory), Tanja Horn (Cath), Zhangbu Xu (Kent State University)

09:20 → 10:10 Cooling in ePIC + discussion¶

Speaker: Andreas Werner Jung (member@cern.ch)

Cooling-Remarks-ajung-022425.pdf