WEBVTT 1 00:01:00.680 --> 00:01:02.540 Anna Wakeland (SNL): Hey, Jeff, how's it going. 2 00:01:02.540 --> 00:01:03.370 Jeff Nelson: Oh, yeah. 3 00:02:18.120 --> 00:02:19.100 mark: Hey! 4 00:02:19.750 --> 00:02:20.430 Jeff Nelson: Hey! 5 00:02:20.670 --> 00:02:22.195 mark: At least there's 2 of us. 6 00:02:22.772 --> 00:02:26.319 Jeff Nelson: I think a few more on here, but 5 or 6. 7 00:02:26.320 --> 00:02:30.454 mark: I see. Sorry my computer was starting up. I thought it was just 2. 8 00:02:37.400 --> 00:02:43.022 Jeff Nelson: Actually a few people are coming on, I think. Probably wait for others. Valerie, wait for a couple of the other 9 00:02:43.540 --> 00:02:47.720 Jeff Nelson: meerkat meerkat pis. Let's see who ends up. 10 00:02:48.160 --> 00:02:49.730 Valerie Taylor: Yes. Hi, Jeff. 11 00:02:50.080 --> 00:02:51.319 Jeff Nelson: Hey! How are you, Valerie. 12 00:02:51.480 --> 00:02:52.550 Valerie Taylor: I'm okay. 13 00:02:52.980 --> 00:02:54.830 Jeff Nelson: You're just okay. 14 00:02:54.830 --> 00:02:55.635 Valerie Taylor: Yeah. 15 00:02:57.274 --> 00:02:59.215 Jeff Nelson: I guess that's true. 16 00:02:59.880 --> 00:03:00.880 Valerie Taylor: Thank you. 17 00:03:04.620 --> 00:03:05.290 Valerie Taylor: Okay. 18 00:03:06.590 --> 00:03:12.133 Valerie Taylor: And and I I know I sent it out to the to the Via group. But, 19 00:03:13.180 --> 00:03:17.819 Valerie Taylor: I'm I'm not certain how many can make it today? So. 20 00:03:18.820 --> 00:03:24.380 Valerie Taylor: Yeah, in this same like to this seems like the peak week for vacations. 21 00:03:24.760 --> 00:03:25.970 Jeff Nelson: That might be. Huh! 22 00:03:26.130 --> 00:03:27.380 Valerie Taylor: Yes, I got a number. 23 00:03:27.380 --> 00:03:28.707 Grzegorz Deptuch: Not next week. 24 00:03:29.900 --> 00:03:33.690 Valerie Taylor: Well, some some people take a 2 week. 25 00:03:35.800 --> 00:03:37.400 Fu Hwei Hong: So. 26 00:03:40.810 --> 00:03:41.410 Fu Hwei Hong: okay. 27 00:03:48.950 --> 00:03:53.270 Jeff Nelson: My, I think Paul is supposed to be on, or let's see. 28 00:03:55.200 --> 00:03:57.969 Jeff Nelson: I know Angela wasn't gonna make it. I think. 29 00:04:00.050 --> 00:04:00.810 Fu Hwei Hong: It's. 30 00:04:14.570 --> 00:04:17.100 Jeff Nelson: Somebody has a loud background that 31 00:04:28.380 --> 00:04:32.840 Jeff Nelson: just give it maybe just a couple more, another minute or 2, and then we can get going. 32 00:04:34.250 --> 00:04:35.770 Valerie Taylor: That'd be good. 33 00:05:03.210 --> 00:05:04.980 Jeff Nelson: See who's here. 34 00:05:23.490 --> 00:05:27.420 Jeff Nelson: Let me just check who's gonna make it? And then from now we can get started. 35 00:05:43.130 --> 00:05:45.060 Jeff Nelson: Start at 4 0, 5. 36 00:05:58.450 --> 00:06:04.890 Jeff Nelson: So, Valerie, are these mostly folks from your team that are on here? The names I don't recognize or other teams. 37 00:06:05.420 --> 00:06:13.870 Valerie Taylor: I think a combination, because I know Adarsha is from Bea but there, it looks like other teams, and I'm not certain 38 00:06:14.870 --> 00:06:16.159 Valerie Taylor: with mark. 39 00:06:18.850 --> 00:06:26.200 Valerie Taylor: So there's and yeah, there's a few pages from Via, but it's probably a combination. 40 00:06:29.160 --> 00:06:31.140 Jeff Nelson: Okay. Well, I might as well get started and see you. 41 00:06:31.452 --> 00:06:34.580 Grzegorz Deptuch: There are a few folks from Alpha as well, so. 42 00:06:34.580 --> 00:06:36.060 Jeff Nelson: Oh, okay, good. 43 00:06:37.530 --> 00:06:40.350 Jeff Nelson: Let me share my screen here. 44 00:06:44.970 --> 00:06:46.770 Jeff Nelson: Think I did that right. 45 00:06:51.740 --> 00:06:53.790 Jeff Nelson: can you? Can you everybody see that. 46 00:06:56.190 --> 00:07:01.439 Valerie Taylor: Yes, it. It's not in presentation mode. But we can see the screen. 47 00:07:01.650 --> 00:07:07.629 Valerie Taylor: Okay, now we see your. We see the presenter mode. So you might wanna. 48 00:07:07.940 --> 00:07:09.670 Jeff Nelson: Switch. Yeah. 49 00:07:09.670 --> 00:07:11.020 Valerie Taylor: Of the display. 50 00:07:13.130 --> 00:07:14.160 Jeff Nelson: Is that fair? 51 00:07:14.650 --> 00:07:15.220 Christian Mailhiot - Sandia National Laboratories: That's okay. 52 00:07:15.551 --> 00:07:18.199 Jeff Nelson: See the other one. But that's all right. 53 00:07:18.940 --> 00:07:23.960 Jeff Nelson: So thanks for joining us. And hopefully, there's a few folks from 54 00:07:24.440 --> 00:07:40.629 Jeff Nelson: some of the other meerkat teams. And so what I'm going to tell you a little bit about today, what we're doing in the Nsr Chip Project. This is the Nanoscale Research center for heterogeneous integration platforms, and I'll tell you a little bit more about 55 00:07:40.740 --> 00:07:48.820 Jeff Nelson: who's involved in a second. And of course I'm not going to go through all 44 slides. But what I'll try to do is just kind of let you know who's involved. 56 00:07:49.200 --> 00:08:01.899 Jeff Nelson: What of our you know? What of our what our challenges are what we're going after, some of the materials that we're looking into and several other aspects. And so these try to give you a feeling for what we're up to. 57 00:08:02.710 --> 00:08:05.889 Jeff Nelson: So here, I want to start with this 58 00:08:06.451 --> 00:08:16.110 Jeff Nelson: and it kind of gives a little background to how this project got started. This is an applied physics reviews article that has been put together 59 00:08:16.704 --> 00:08:17.916 Jeff Nelson: by this team. 60 00:08:18.500 --> 00:08:23.160 Jeff Nelson: and led by Zuming Liu. I think Zuming is on the line, and he's going to talk a little bit. 61 00:08:23.962 --> 00:08:25.609 Jeff Nelson: Later in the presentation. 62 00:08:25.730 --> 00:08:29.389 Jeff Nelson: But we had been working together for roughly 63 00:08:29.610 --> 00:08:37.140 Jeff Nelson: little over 2 years before the call came out trying to understand how the 5 nanoscience centers 64 00:08:37.309 --> 00:08:49.060 Jeff Nelson: could work together and identify some research priorities and capabilities that would be important for the microelectronics community. So when the call came out. 65 00:08:49.560 --> 00:09:09.600 Jeff Nelson: this was really it was quite timely, because we were kind of ready to, you know, propose the research that you'll see in a little bit. But this is a review article. Maybe our 1st publication from the Nsrc. Chip team. It's been submitted. I don't have dui yet, but zooming might have it, but I don't yet. 66 00:09:09.930 --> 00:09:14.379 Jeff Nelson: but it really. It's about a hundred page review article that 67 00:09:14.740 --> 00:09:19.499 Jeff Nelson: tries to characterize all the capabilities that are housed at the 68 00:09:19.600 --> 00:09:31.450 Jeff Nelson: Nsrcs. And look at sort of fundamentals and synthesis metrology, fabrication performance considerations for next generation microelectronics. So 69 00:09:31.930 --> 00:09:37.550 Jeff Nelson: I won't show a lot of results in this presentation, since I'm just trying to give you a feeling for 70 00:09:37.900 --> 00:09:41.580 Jeff Nelson: what we're up to, and maybe how you can plug in and interact with our team. 71 00:09:41.810 --> 00:09:47.840 Jeff Nelson: But there are a lot of results in this article that I can send out the link eventually when when we have that 72 00:09:50.257 --> 00:09:54.651 Jeff Nelson: so here's the here's the group, and we have, like, I said, 73 00:09:55.150 --> 00:10:00.849 Jeff Nelson: on our team sent, which is where I'm at, and the molecular foundry 74 00:10:01.220 --> 00:10:16.059 Jeff Nelson: at Lbnl center for nanoscale materials at Argonne Center for functional nanomaterials at Brookhaven, and then Oak Ridge Center for Nano phase material science. All 5 of the nsrcs and then we have contributors from. 75 00:10:16.060 --> 00:10:16.760 Jim: Yeah. 76 00:10:16.760 --> 00:10:23.350 Jeff Nelson: Mit, and then mit Lincoln labs, and then Fermi National Accelerator lab 77 00:10:23.860 --> 00:10:28.690 Jeff Nelson: to help kind of drive towards application important for for DOE. 78 00:10:29.060 --> 00:10:29.440 Jim: It's all. 79 00:10:29.630 --> 00:10:40.460 Jeff Nelson: And please stop if you have any questions as you go along the way. This is kind of how we're structured. So project management structure and team members. So I'm the director. 80 00:10:41.156 --> 00:10:45.260 Jeff Nelson: Christian Melo is also Melio is on the line. 81 00:10:45.430 --> 00:10:50.919 Jeff Nelson: He's out at Sandia, California, and of course, has lots of experience in semiconductor physics 82 00:10:51.100 --> 00:10:54.490 Jeff Nelson: over many, many years like myself and 83 00:10:54.955 --> 00:11:00.940 Jeff Nelson: Anna Wakelin on the line is our project manager and really helping out keeping the team moving forward and 84 00:11:01.550 --> 00:11:02.490 Jeff Nelson: us on track. 85 00:11:02.490 --> 00:11:03.050 Jim: Really that. 86 00:11:03.050 --> 00:11:05.349 Jeff Nelson: And then we break up into 4. 87 00:11:06.680 --> 00:11:07.270 Jeff Nelson: Thrusts. 88 00:11:10.030 --> 00:11:12.849 Jeff Nelson: Somebody needs a mute in the background. 89 00:11:15.530 --> 00:11:16.480 Jeff Nelson: Thanks. 90 00:11:17.690 --> 00:11:32.110 Jeff Nelson: into 4 project thrusts, and I'll tell you a little bit about those as we go along. And so the 1st one is focused around synthesis and processing integration that's led by Jinkyung Yu up at synth los Alamos. 91 00:11:32.370 --> 00:11:41.109 Jeff Nelson: The second one is sort of now bringing the materials together into and looking at multimodal interactions. That's Ani samant at 92 00:11:41.300 --> 00:11:49.220 Jeff Nelson: Argon, Cnm. And then, in terms of our use. Case and Ml. Framework. Farah Fahim at Fermilab 93 00:11:49.470 --> 00:12:09.409 Jeff Nelson: leads that thrust, and then Nez Domingo at Cnms, at Oak Ridge, leads our crosscutting characterization thrust. Other contributors are listed here, and I'll give you some contact information later. Changyeong Nam at Cfn. Ricardo Ruiz, out at the 94 00:12:09.530 --> 00:12:15.480 Jeff Nelson: foundry zooming lose again on the, on the phone, on the call here today, and we'll talk to you a little bit later. 95 00:12:15.580 --> 00:12:17.979 Jeff Nelson: Way pan in San Diego, California. 96 00:12:18.971 --> 00:12:22.340 Jeff Nelson: I ping Chen up at St. Los Alamos. 97 00:12:23.590 --> 00:12:27.029 Jeff Nelson: cattle and Sparbarou at Sandia, Livermore. 98 00:12:27.210 --> 00:12:31.539 Jeff Nelson: Sabika, Sodamani, here at Sint, in Albuquerque. 99 00:12:32.120 --> 00:12:43.009 Jeff Nelson: and Chris Jose at Lbnl Als Light, source, and Jiwon Kim at Mit, Dan Friedman at Lincoln labs and 100 00:12:43.250 --> 00:12:46.400 Jeff Nelson: stop on our wall here. It's India. 101 00:12:47.140 --> 00:12:50.530 Jeff Nelson: So those are all the main team members. And of course, now they're 102 00:12:50.820 --> 00:12:57.119 Jeff Nelson: assembling postdocs and other folks that are working with them at each of these sites and on the thrusts. 103 00:12:58.370 --> 00:13:04.970 Jeff Nelson: Of course, as we all know, you know, we're facing unprecedented energy efficiency challenge with 104 00:13:05.160 --> 00:13:08.770 Jeff Nelson: microelectronics. I think we're all familiar with that with 105 00:13:09.520 --> 00:13:16.009 Jeff Nelson: you know, all of the data centers and AI and 106 00:13:16.300 --> 00:13:20.249 Jeff Nelson: autonomous driving and Internet of things is all driving 107 00:13:20.430 --> 00:13:24.950 Jeff Nelson: a need for more and more efficient microelectronic technology. 108 00:13:26.770 --> 00:13:47.960 Jeff Nelson: And of course, AI is putting a big strain. And these are just sort of predictions that I'm sure most of you have seen in terms of the requirement for power. That's why a lot of new venture. Capital folks and others are investing in data centers and power centers to power the data centers. 109 00:13:48.090 --> 00:13:58.250 Jeff Nelson: And this you know, energy for AI training. And you know, an inference. Eventual event inference is kind of reaching 110 00:13:58.600 --> 00:14:11.369 Jeff Nelson: a really significant fraction of the global energy budget. And we all need to do something about that. And I think the 8 projects within meerkat are trying to tackle 111 00:14:11.670 --> 00:14:24.730 Jeff Nelson: one aspect or the or the other, whether it's a materials and device, integration, challenge computing architecture and many, many different aspects. And we're all going after a different part of that. 112 00:14:24.880 --> 00:14:33.919 Jeff Nelson: So of course, it's good to be on the phone with everybody, so that we can start to pull these things together and see how we can leverage and take advantage of what we're all doing. 113 00:14:35.750 --> 00:14:43.550 Jeff Nelson: And so this this view graph tries to summarize what the Nsrc. Chip is doing in a big picture 114 00:14:43.680 --> 00:14:49.070 Jeff Nelson: course. As you know, you know, the Cmos scaling has been going from. 115 00:14:49.300 --> 00:14:53.210 Jeff Nelson: you know, 100 nanometers, the the very 116 00:14:53.715 --> 00:14:57.710 Jeff Nelson: most cutting edge from Tsmc. On the order of, you know, 2 to 5 117 00:14:57.910 --> 00:15:04.559 Jeff Nelson: nanometer gate lengths, and pushing to go lower and lower into sort of the atomic limit. 118 00:15:05.491 --> 00:15:11.919 Jeff Nelson: And you know, that's spurring other research, because that, of course, is getting harder and harder. 119 00:15:12.170 --> 00:15:13.250 Jeff Nelson: And 120 00:15:13.430 --> 00:15:23.600 Jeff Nelson: there's sort of 2 pathways that this is taking sort of a heterogeneous integration pathway of advanced packaging and Chiplet architectures, and some of that's being 121 00:15:23.730 --> 00:15:30.029 Jeff Nelson: worked in meerkat as well, and then a sort of continued Cmos scaling and innovation. 122 00:15:30.140 --> 00:15:34.811 Jeff Nelson: And so you know, from our perspective, you know, we're not, gonna 123 00:15:36.090 --> 00:15:40.809 Jeff Nelson: develop a whole new semiconductor technology. We really need to 124 00:15:41.240 --> 00:15:45.530 Jeff Nelson: push to integrate with silicon Cmos and and 125 00:15:46.090 --> 00:15:49.699 Jeff Nelson: and we're trying to to do 2 important things there. 126 00:15:49.860 --> 00:15:59.790 Jeff Nelson: Our team. One is develop new advanced characterization capabilities. To look at these atomic scale. 127 00:16:00.460 --> 00:16:10.739 Jeff Nelson: You know, features that we're all gonna need to look at as we integrate, you know, 2D materials and other things, and then do an application to show the value of what we've done. 128 00:16:11.390 --> 00:16:22.430 Jeff Nelson: For you know, advanced high energy physics detectors. And that's where Fermi Lab comes in. I know several of the other projects in Meerkat have kind of a similar similar goal. 129 00:16:23.094 --> 00:16:25.640 Jeff Nelson: And you know, we can really use a lot of 130 00:16:26.200 --> 00:16:36.750 Jeff Nelson: interaction collaboration with the other teams to to try to get that right in terms of you know what we're doing on materials device. What we're really thinking about is developing 131 00:16:36.960 --> 00:16:42.059 Jeff Nelson: integration options into this huge semiconductor 132 00:16:42.840 --> 00:16:49.229 Jeff Nelson: train in terms of you know, Chiplet architectures and Hi and Cmos scaling 133 00:16:49.420 --> 00:16:50.969 Jeff Nelson: where we're trying to look at. 134 00:16:51.900 --> 00:16:54.280 Jeff Nelson: you know, 2D materials for electronic 135 00:16:54.390 --> 00:17:08.380 Jeff Nelson: applications, wide band gap materials for sensing communication. We're looking at 3, 5 optical materials. We'll give you a tiny bit more details in a moment, and then neuromorphic materials for artificial intelligence. Of course, many of these 136 00:17:08.490 --> 00:17:14.679 Jeff Nelson: there's, you know, very active areas of research. And I'm sure many of your laboratories have efforts 137 00:17:14.930 --> 00:17:16.629 Jeff Nelson: along these lines. 138 00:17:16.990 --> 00:17:19.229 Jeff Nelson: They're really some major 139 00:17:19.880 --> 00:17:27.109 Jeff Nelson: challenges to be able to actually integrate these in to, you know, a Cmos manufacturing setting 140 00:17:27.480 --> 00:17:33.700 Jeff Nelson: still sort of defects and interfaces and things like that are 141 00:17:34.130 --> 00:17:43.599 Jeff Nelson: getting in the way of these things actually being adopted. And I don't know if you folks saw this. But there was just an Rfi out from the 142 00:17:43.830 --> 00:17:48.940 Jeff Nelson: Natcast National, you know, semiconductor technology Center 143 00:17:49.060 --> 00:18:00.160 Jeff Nelson: operator looking for information pertaining to basically this problem here, adopting these novel materials into a Cmos 144 00:18:01.070 --> 00:18:04.670 Jeff Nelson: flow. And you know what the challenges there are. 145 00:18:04.950 --> 00:18:08.050 Jeff Nelson: So that's really what our team is going after. 146 00:18:10.860 --> 00:18:28.399 Jeff Nelson: And just to kind of summarize what those research research challenges are broken up into into 4 overall areas where you know the 1st challenge, of course, is integration of non-silicon materials with different or incompatible processing conditions and physics. 147 00:18:28.600 --> 00:18:34.839 Jeff Nelson: terms of charge, spin thermal transport as well as atomic defects and interfaces. So that's 1 thing we need to. 148 00:18:35.050 --> 00:18:40.110 Jeff Nelson: of course, focus on in this project. And then the second part is then, as you bring these together. 149 00:18:40.390 --> 00:18:42.449 Jeff Nelson: being able to understand. 150 00:18:42.620 --> 00:18:51.539 Jeff Nelson: You know, the interfacial properties of integrating the 2D material with a 3, 5, or neuromorphic material. 151 00:18:52.250 --> 00:18:56.930 Jeff Nelson: 3rd part would be developing these physics informed predictive 152 00:18:57.760 --> 00:19:01.579 Jeff Nelson: models, you know, based on experimental demonstrations 153 00:19:01.810 --> 00:19:05.759 Jeff Nelson: and trying to get away from kind of a expensive trial and error. 154 00:19:06.527 --> 00:19:11.120 Jeff Nelson: Search and parameter space. And then finally, 3rd challenge is having. 155 00:19:11.450 --> 00:19:19.790 Jeff Nelson: you know, advanced characterization, operando multi physics probes to be able to look at complex and varied interfaces. 156 00:19:21.872 --> 00:19:25.969 Jeff Nelson: You know, those challenges are broken up into. As I said. 157 00:19:26.270 --> 00:19:36.850 Jeff Nelson: 4 different thrusts with the 1st one is synthesis and process integration. So there, we're really trying to establish, of course, the science and foundational epitaxy of 158 00:19:37.490 --> 00:19:44.900 Jeff Nelson: monolithic 3D. Energy integration, and be able to control the defects and material functions at the level that 159 00:19:45.030 --> 00:19:52.410 Jeff Nelson: they could be incorporated into Cmos manufacturing flow and expected outcomes. There 160 00:19:53.010 --> 00:20:05.849 Jeff Nelson: are, as you see here, complex energeous materials and arrays and interfaces, then the second part and thrust 2 is about multimodal interactions and bringing those individually optimized materials together 161 00:20:06.170 --> 00:20:10.440 Jeff Nelson: into stacks of 2D. And 3D. Materials, for example. 162 00:20:10.870 --> 00:20:14.590 Jeff Nelson: and being able to understand. You know how that interface 163 00:20:14.690 --> 00:20:22.620 Jeff Nelson: properties change and affect each other's performance and any new defects, and how that affects the device behavior. 164 00:20:22.740 --> 00:20:29.420 Jeff Nelson: The 3rd thrust, then, is around. As I mentioned, use cases and machine learning framework 165 00:20:30.264 --> 00:20:35.710 Jeff Nelson: to help accelerate, you know, basically take all the process data 166 00:20:36.390 --> 00:20:39.139 Jeff Nelson: performance and characterization data and build a 167 00:20:39.350 --> 00:20:45.560 Jeff Nelson: Ml framework that we can use and be predictive. And finally, the crosscutting characterization. 168 00:20:47.020 --> 00:20:53.860 Jeff Nelson: Thrust here, I'll just kind of capture a little bit more details of each of the thrusts 169 00:20:54.210 --> 00:21:00.140 Jeff Nelson: and thrust one around synthesis process integration. This kind of breaks out 170 00:21:00.640 --> 00:21:06.180 Jeff Nelson: the material families that we're looking at. There's 4 different sub thrust A, BCD. 171 00:21:06.710 --> 00:21:10.109 Jeff Nelson: As I mentioned before, why, bank app. 2D. 172 00:21:10.570 --> 00:21:15.399 Jeff Nelson: Neuromorphic and 3 5 materials. And these are representative 173 00:21:15.930 --> 00:21:25.290 Jeff Nelson: materials that the team is starting with, and of course, you know, these will evolve over time, and as the project goes forward we'll sort of narrow the scope. 174 00:21:26.450 --> 00:21:30.780 Jeff Nelson: Depending how the integration and process, you know it's going. 175 00:21:30.880 --> 00:21:33.750 Jeff Nelson: And so these are some examples of, you know. 176 00:21:34.270 --> 00:21:41.950 Jeff Nelson: 2D materials. We'll be looking at neuromorphic materials and as well as the 3 5 integration 177 00:21:42.930 --> 00:21:47.940 Jeff Nelson: course. One is for sort of high thermal connectivity and detectors. 178 00:21:48.230 --> 00:21:52.910 Jeff Nelson: 2D materials more, for you know, 2D logic gates and 179 00:21:53.660 --> 00:22:05.950 Jeff Nelson: neuromorphic materials for defect driven, you know, neuronal materials. And then opt electronics on the 3 5 side. So there's sort of where we're starting. But there, there are other materials operation. 180 00:22:07.180 --> 00:22:11.410 Jeff Nelson: you know, options, that the team is looking into right now. 181 00:22:12.930 --> 00:22:21.249 Jeff Nelson: and I'm sure many of your projects have some overlap with all this, and I think that'd be a good thing for us to identify and and kind of work together 182 00:22:21.820 --> 00:22:27.900 Jeff Nelson: in. Thrust. 2 again. As I said, we take the materials that we developed, and and 183 00:22:28.470 --> 00:22:34.359 Jeff Nelson: at least we think are integratable processes, and then bring those together into different stacks. 184 00:22:34.790 --> 00:22:40.920 Jeff Nelson: And that's kind of shown this blown up on the side of where people think they'll be starting in terms of 185 00:22:41.080 --> 00:22:51.930 Jeff Nelson: single crystal diamond, integrating with 2D. Materials, and thrust 2 A and see several options in thrust, 2 B of integrating different 186 00:22:52.770 --> 00:22:57.770 Jeff Nelson: 2D materials, 2D. Materials and diamond, and then thrust. C is integrating. 187 00:22:58.970 --> 00:23:05.599 Jeff Nelson: you know, anywhere from one to a couple different materials in terms of diamond oxides and 2D. Materials and same thing on the 188 00:23:05.810 --> 00:23:18.660 Jeff Nelson: integration of 3, 5 materials with 2D. So this is kind of where we're starting. But, as you know, it's the beginning of the project, and these will evolve over time depending on success, and and how the team's working together 189 00:23:20.490 --> 00:23:27.629 Jeff Nelson: and thrust 3, the use case and Ml framework, one broken out into in detector sensing. 190 00:23:27.800 --> 00:23:32.989 Jeff Nelson: And I believe Farah is online. She'll say a little bit more about that later if she was able to make it. 191 00:23:33.180 --> 00:23:39.029 Jeff Nelson: And then implementation of that use case on the other side is developing this predictive Ml framework 192 00:23:39.790 --> 00:23:42.719 Jeff Nelson: and neural net and circuit simulators. 193 00:23:46.027 --> 00:23:54.710 Jeff Nelson: This kind of captures what we're trying to do in the crossguiding capability characterization capabilities led by Nez Domingo at Cnms Oak Ridge. 194 00:23:55.020 --> 00:23:57.689 Jeff Nelson: So sort of 3 overall areas 195 00:23:58.020 --> 00:24:00.540 Jeff Nelson: one is what she's calling monitored. 196 00:24:00.640 --> 00:24:07.959 Jeff Nelson: which is the synthesis of sort of ultra clean interfaces where be able to stack these things in their scanning probes? 197 00:24:08.855 --> 00:24:13.380 Jeff Nelson: And do a variety of experiments, and then 198 00:24:13.610 --> 00:24:21.999 Jeff Nelson: in operando in terms of probing buried interfaces, things like photoluminescence or Singletron, X-rays and Nanoarpus 199 00:24:22.120 --> 00:24:27.490 Jeff Nelson: at Als and the foundry and the quantum press integration 200 00:24:29.140 --> 00:24:36.390 Jeff Nelson: tool that's at Cfn Brookhaven and it's a multifast electron microscope out in Sandia, California. 201 00:24:36.790 --> 00:24:40.460 Jeff Nelson: on chip testing platforms more in situ 202 00:24:40.960 --> 00:24:47.800 Jeff Nelson: capacitive Afm Nano X-ray. You know all the all standard probes as well as 203 00:24:48.370 --> 00:24:53.500 Jeff Nelson: what we're calling a compact platform that zooming will say a little bit about in a few minutes. 204 00:24:55.800 --> 00:25:00.669 Jeff Nelson: That's kind of you know, general overview of where we're going and what we're trying to do. 205 00:25:00.850 --> 00:25:05.390 Jeff Nelson: I thought it would be helpful for everybody. You know. I can send send this out. 206 00:25:06.112 --> 00:25:08.350 Jeff Nelson: As many of you may know. 207 00:25:08.510 --> 00:25:11.890 Jeff Nelson: You know DOE has asked us to pull together 208 00:25:12.810 --> 00:25:22.130 Jeff Nelson: all 8 of our projects into a cooperative collaborative center that we've called Meerkat. As part of that 209 00:25:22.400 --> 00:25:28.519 Jeff Nelson: all of the pis. We wrote up a collaboration plan and defined these 4 working groups. 210 00:25:28.720 --> 00:25:36.890 Jeff Nelson: and the 4 working groups are seen there on the right materials and devices all in Hi and characterization. 211 00:25:37.600 --> 00:25:47.179 Jeff Nelson: Working group 3. Methodology, methodologies, architects, intelligence, sensing, events being. That'd be something more. Valerie, who's on the line is going to be focusing on. And then. 212 00:25:47.460 --> 00:25:56.760 Jeff Nelson: 4, th one is around workforce development. And so I put up all of our team members and their emails and sort of map them into 213 00:25:56.950 --> 00:26:01.580 Jeff Nelson: these working groups. So, as you might imagine. Given what I've just talked about. 214 00:26:02.150 --> 00:26:06.559 Jeff Nelson: we have a lot of folks that would be interested in collaborating, working. 215 00:26:07.250 --> 00:26:10.039 Jeff Nelson: working within working groups, one and 2, 216 00:26:10.240 --> 00:26:19.690 Jeff Nelson: and those folks are listed there and then we have a number of folks, Catalyn, Daniel Friedman and Saban. 217 00:26:19.800 --> 00:26:21.940 Jeff Nelson: who are more aligned with 218 00:26:22.300 --> 00:26:33.570 Jeff Nelson: working group 3. And so this just gives you some idea about how we, how we might begin to collaborate and cooperate within within these groups 219 00:26:34.710 --> 00:26:36.409 Jeff Nelson: or in the project. Sorry. 220 00:26:37.700 --> 00:26:43.380 Jeff Nelson: So what I wanted to kind of end with and and transition to a Zoom Meeting, and Farah said. If she's on the line. 221 00:26:43.550 --> 00:26:46.270 Jeff Nelson: is I, you know, along with all of the 222 00:26:46.510 --> 00:26:52.690 Jeff Nelson: potential materials and device characterization, fabrication, things like that, opportunities to collaborate. 223 00:26:53.320 --> 00:27:03.740 Jeff Nelson: I thought I just mentioned. 2. 1 is this cross cutting in the crosscutting capability, characterization, capabilities, what we're calling our compact characterization platform. 224 00:27:03.980 --> 00:27:15.459 Jeff Nelson: And then the second part would be having farah say a few things about in detector sensing, and thrust 3, which I know shares features with many of the other projects. 225 00:27:16.380 --> 00:27:25.440 Jeff Nelson: So I think that's where I'm going to stop. And I could take some questions before we maybe transition to Zooming to say a little bit about compact 226 00:27:30.850 --> 00:27:33.199 Jeff Nelson: any thoughts questions. 227 00:27:38.980 --> 00:27:39.840 Jeff Nelson: Okay? 228 00:27:40.480 --> 00:27:41.880 Jeff Nelson: And I'll let. 229 00:27:42.320 --> 00:27:45.209 Jeff Nelson: So, Ming, do you want to take over for a couple of slides? 230 00:27:45.210 --> 00:27:50.760 TzuMing Lu: Yeah, sure, I'll start sharing the slides. 231 00:27:54.610 --> 00:27:56.930 TzuMing Lu: I can. You see the slides now? 232 00:27:57.460 --> 00:27:58.180 Jeff Nelson: Yeah. 233 00:27:58.180 --> 00:28:03.949 TzuMing Lu: Okay, yeah. Yeah. So I'll talk about see if I can go to full screen. 234 00:28:09.290 --> 00:28:09.990 TzuMing Lu: The 235 00:28:10.470 --> 00:28:29.159 TzuMing Lu: is this, good? Yeah. Okay? So yeah, I'll talk about the compact project that we're working on. Under this. Nsr, chip program compact is co-designed multimodal platform for accelerated characterization and testing. 236 00:28:29.845 --> 00:28:38.571 TzuMing Lu: It's going to be a collaboration. And it is a collaboration between all 5 Nsrcs under DOE 237 00:28:39.610 --> 00:28:56.730 TzuMing Lu: So the motivation here is actually quite simple. We have been working with a lot of magic materials that that people claim can be very useful for a lot of microelectronics applications. You can make magic widgets out of those 238 00:28:58.100 --> 00:29:25.569 TzuMing Lu: And here at Nsrc we collaborate with a lot of university groups and internally as well, so that we have the opportunity to work with all these materials. So we have a lot of experience of handling with these very exotic stuff, but also that that's also one of our pain points, because for each material we have to figure out a very special way of working with them. 239 00:29:26.080 --> 00:29:35.210 TzuMing Lu: And then there are so many different properties that one can probe out of each material. I can look at the electrical property. 240 00:29:35.350 --> 00:29:39.550 TzuMing Lu: the magnetic property, the thermal, the structural, optical, mechanical, and chemical. 241 00:29:39.700 --> 00:29:55.640 TzuMing Lu: So it's going to be a very challenging task, trying to understand a material very well. It's very time consuming thing, right? There are so many properties to interact with the world or the material to interact with the world 242 00:29:55.770 --> 00:29:57.310 TzuMing Lu: as you want to characterize them. 243 00:29:57.500 --> 00:30:00.910 TzuMing Lu: There's also this inverse problem that 244 00:30:01.270 --> 00:30:19.329 TzuMing Lu: very often people don't think about. If we're going to use this material in microelectronics applications. Very, very often we have to consider, how is that compatible with existing silicon C. Moss, right? At least for the immediate future. 245 00:30:19.650 --> 00:30:28.773 TzuMing Lu: We're not going to replace Cmos in completely. So most likely they'll work together so that we have more functionalities. And then more 246 00:30:29.360 --> 00:30:39.350 TzuMing Lu: interesting is that we can do. But Cmos is still there. So adding that additional material, how is that going to change the second Cmos part? Or how is that compatible with the fabrication? 247 00:30:39.460 --> 00:30:55.590 TzuMing Lu: Right? So now, going back to the materials characterization, our standard methodologies right now is that we have this material. And if I want to understand the electrical properties, then I will take that material and then do some fabrication to turn that into a electrical testing device. 248 00:30:55.850 --> 00:31:17.039 TzuMing Lu: and that might be months of development, of fabrication. And then, finally, I can do that experiment same thing for thermal properties and another piece for doing optical characterization, and they may have different fabrication paths so that they're all developed separately, right? And same thing for 249 00:31:17.380 --> 00:31:40.100 TzuMing Lu: the structure categorization as well. So that brings us a lot of challenges. Well, number one, do we have enough growth, repeatability, so that we have confidence saying that well, simple a for electrical is the same simple, at least nominally as simple. B for thermal, simple C for optical and simple D for Tn characterization. 250 00:31:40.300 --> 00:31:44.029 TzuMing Lu: That is not an easy question to answer. 251 00:31:44.260 --> 00:31:58.749 TzuMing Lu: Another challenge. Is that? Well, to do these simple prep and fabrication, we unavoidably have to do something to the material. What is the impact? And then, if we have to do very complicated, simple preparation. 252 00:31:59.030 --> 00:32:08.179 TzuMing Lu: Sometimes the you lose the material properties that you want to actually measure, or you lose the intrinsic things that you want to characterize. 253 00:32:08.700 --> 00:32:30.500 TzuMing Lu: And finally, another challenge is that there are so many different measurement protocols, especially across different labs, different groups, that the measured properties. Sometimes it's a little bit hard to compare, because you don't know whether people use this current to measure this property or that field to measure that property. 254 00:32:31.230 --> 00:32:37.850 TzuMing Lu: So what we would like to bring to the world. Is this compact widget? 255 00:32:38.589 --> 00:32:45.570 TzuMing Lu: What should this thing do if we can make a wish? Well, ideally, this can be used for synthesis of 256 00:32:45.690 --> 00:32:47.810 TzuMing Lu: exotic novel material. 257 00:32:48.130 --> 00:32:55.410 TzuMing Lu: and then it should require minimal processing and has minimal impact on the material after the synthesis. 258 00:32:55.740 --> 00:33:02.870 TzuMing Lu: And it should be able to support as many characterizations as possible, including all the characterization that people want to do. 259 00:33:03.500 --> 00:33:26.519 TzuMing Lu: There should be standardized measurement protocols, so that there's no ambiguity when we compare results. And finally, ideally, this thing has to be, or if it can be intelligent, it knows what to do. Once there's a material on there. That would be great, and then that'll improve the characterization throughput quite a lot. 260 00:33:26.950 --> 00:33:33.429 TzuMing Lu: So this is what we would like to get if if we complete this project. 261 00:33:33.950 --> 00:33:40.720 TzuMing Lu: So we envision 2 types of deliverables. The 1st one is a passive, compact, substrate. 262 00:33:40.970 --> 00:33:54.499 TzuMing Lu: The passive substrates can be made of silicon, for example, and then there will be through silicon vias so that we can create backside contacts. And then all the passive testing structures 263 00:33:54.690 --> 00:33:58.420 TzuMing Lu: will be built on the substrate. Already. 264 00:33:58.680 --> 00:34:10.650 TzuMing Lu: After all that is done, we'll give that chip to material synthesis groups so they can put down their novel, thin film or or materials that they they want to characterize 265 00:34:10.820 --> 00:34:14.809 TzuMing Lu: right? And then, after that, we can do additional 266 00:34:14.989 --> 00:34:42.500 TzuMing Lu: back in fabrication to process the material to some degree. But we can also go directly plug that silicon chip onto a already assembled circuit board with the right contacts, and then just load that on there and mount it on there and then all the characterization protocols are handled by this already assembled electrical system on this circuit board. 267 00:34:42.830 --> 00:34:51.169 TzuMing Lu: So that way there is is minimal material processing that's that's required. There's minimal fabrication that needs to be developed. 268 00:34:51.380 --> 00:34:55.229 TzuMing Lu: So then that'll increase the throughput of material development and the feedback 269 00:34:55.400 --> 00:34:59.240 TzuMing Lu: as well as standardizing the characterization protocol. 270 00:34:59.840 --> 00:35:04.649 TzuMing Lu: So that's the 1st type of compact substrate that we will deliver. 271 00:35:04.970 --> 00:35:17.529 TzuMing Lu: The second one is more ambitious, like the silicon platform itself can actually be active, because this silicon. We know how to make circuits. So if we can make active 272 00:35:17.560 --> 00:35:22.129 TzuMing Lu: application specific Ics, so then we can actually do more things to it. 273 00:35:22.160 --> 00:35:48.300 TzuMing Lu: Right? So those Ics can come from commercial foundries through their multi-project wafer services, or here, at least within Sandia, we know how to make silicon cmos, either in our microfab, and then silicon mesa, or within synth as well. So that gives us a lot more flexibility in what we can do with this platform. 274 00:35:48.360 --> 00:35:52.159 TzuMing Lu: One thing that we can use this to. To study is then 275 00:35:52.230 --> 00:36:19.709 TzuMing Lu: well, we will build active silicon cmo circuits, and it'll be intelligent, but also that gives us a way to evaluate this inverse problem. When we add this material, when you synthesize this material, what is impact on the silicon circuit, it might not be compatible. If you have to elevate the synthesis temperature to 800 degrees C, so that gives a way to a vehicle to test that impact. 276 00:36:20.380 --> 00:36:27.760 TzuMing Lu: So this will be the the more ambitious goal here. 277 00:36:29.900 --> 00:36:36.860 TzuMing Lu: So this is a very rough timeline of what we want to be able to deliver. So by the end of 278 00:36:36.990 --> 00:36:39.749 TzuMing Lu: the project by year 4. I think 279 00:36:39.900 --> 00:37:07.500 TzuMing Lu: we should be able to deliver different versions of compact, the active kind, and also the passive kind for the passive kind. We believe we can deliver on different materials, so we can use silicon, or we can use sapphire, which might be very attractive for material synthesis that will require much higher synthesis, temperatures that silicon cannot sustain, or the circuits or the materials cannot sustain. 280 00:37:08.800 --> 00:37:27.380 TzuMing Lu: we will also create different subversions of those compact platforms so that we can target different material classes and different applications. For example, if there are materials that only work at low temperatures, such as superconductors, then we'll tailor make those 281 00:37:27.690 --> 00:37:31.809 TzuMing Lu: compact chips for for those applications. 282 00:37:32.578 --> 00:37:54.950 TzuMing Lu: So, going backwards in the in the milestones, we will want to deliver the the passive silicon and sapphire version with the characterization capability on the circuit board level by year 3. So then, by year 2, we want to be able to deliver individual modules for different characterization, modes, non-electrical. 283 00:37:55.080 --> 00:38:14.750 TzuMing Lu: And then in year one, we want to demonstrate all the electrical characterization modes, including standard electrical transport, DC, transport A/C measurement, impedance measurement. So we can do capacitive measurement, inductive measurement and also microwave spectroscopy. 284 00:38:15.700 --> 00:38:27.770 TzuMing Lu: Now we want to demonstrate this on various materials that we are interested in. So, as Jeff mentioned, there are so many different materials that the the project 285 00:38:28.090 --> 00:38:38.949 TzuMing Lu: explore so pretty materials, metal films, semiconductor, magnetic insulators, etc. And I think this is the place that we 286 00:38:39.170 --> 00:38:45.639 TzuMing Lu: really really want to collaborate with other Nsrcs, and then also other members within the Mirror cap 287 00:38:45.770 --> 00:38:49.140 TzuMing Lu: center and also other Msrcs as well. 288 00:38:49.300 --> 00:39:05.800 TzuMing Lu: and then going beyond year, one going backwards, we will look at and incorporate requirements from other characterization modes, for example, optical characterization, and and then X-ray characterization, structural characterization. 289 00:39:05.980 --> 00:39:21.529 TzuMing Lu: We will make the structures to be compatible with those characterizations, so that this platform becomes more versatile, can have many, many different modes, so that we can get very coherent set of properties. 290 00:39:22.270 --> 00:39:27.319 TzuMing Lu: I think that pretty much captures what we would like to do for for compact. 291 00:39:29.590 --> 00:39:32.990 Jeff Nelson: Thanks. Zooming! That was great. Any any questions. 292 00:39:34.840 --> 00:39:36.940 Jeff Nelson: When folks yeah, hang on. 293 00:39:38.910 --> 00:40:01.409 Grzegorz Deptuch: Thank you very much for this presentation and all an outline of this testing characterization capabilities. My question is a bit about resources in terms of infrastructure that you intend to use within your project, and that could be potentially shared among other projects. 294 00:40:01.500 --> 00:40:07.340 Grzegorz Deptuch: So could you maybe give some, and I know there can be too much to say. But 295 00:40:07.370 --> 00:40:37.229 Grzegorz Deptuch: some outline of what infrastructure you're planning to use, whether it's gonna be some sort of users facility type, infrastructure. How such infrastructure could be shared among several projects to improve efficiency of, you know, for example, characterization, because I think in several projects we do have materials involved and characterization of materials based 296 00:40:37.390 --> 00:40:43.300 Grzegorz Deptuch: samples, devices, and then, even later on, going into some more complex chips. 297 00:40:46.320 --> 00:40:55.330 TzuMing Lu: Yeah. So I think for for the compact itself. Our idea is that we will provide 298 00:40:55.660 --> 00:41:00.030 TzuMing Lu: will develop and provide this base 299 00:41:00.500 --> 00:41:09.180 TzuMing Lu: PC. Board system or electrical system, so that once the the chip is fabricated, all the interfacing. 300 00:41:09.730 --> 00:41:15.270 TzuMing Lu: all the interfaces will be standardized. So we you just need to put that chip onto this 301 00:41:15.680 --> 00:41:33.509 TzuMing Lu: machine if you will. And then there should be standardized software that will communicate with this circuit board, and the circuit board will then control all the analog and digital circuits to do all the required measurements. And of course we can 302 00:41:33.610 --> 00:41:51.009 TzuMing Lu: customize all the hardware so that the machine can do different things for different purposes. So I think this is where we are very excited to to collaborate with different projects. So yeah, if there are any 303 00:41:51.190 --> 00:42:03.119 TzuMing Lu: ideas that you think which incorporates. This is a great time since, because we're designing and then trying to plan out the prototypes. 304 00:42:06.190 --> 00:42:06.720 Valerie Taylor: And. 305 00:42:06.720 --> 00:42:08.289 Jeff Nelson: That? Answer a question. 306 00:42:08.610 --> 00:42:09.310 Jeff Nelson: Kregor. 307 00:42:09.340 --> 00:42:10.119 Grzegorz Deptuch: Yeah, I think. 308 00:42:10.120 --> 00:42:14.640 Jeff Nelson: So we we're going to use synth. And then the larger mesa Fab at 309 00:42:14.750 --> 00:42:18.149 Jeff Nelson: at Sandia, and then outside vendors. 310 00:42:19.020 --> 00:42:20.489 Grzegorz Deptuch: Thanks. Thank you. 311 00:42:21.440 --> 00:42:21.765 Valerie Taylor: Yes. 312 00:42:22.260 --> 00:42:22.960 Archana Raja: Consistently. 313 00:42:22.960 --> 00:42:23.460 Valerie Taylor: Salary. 314 00:42:23.460 --> 00:42:24.010 Archana Raja: Sorry go ahead. 315 00:42:24.970 --> 00:42:37.912 Valerie Taylor: Okay, I just had a a question related to Gregor about the characterization. So this is Valerie, and and that is to 316 00:42:38.490 --> 00:42:55.040 Valerie Taylor: So you mentioned the the scent. And what you're doing there. But I was wondering, too. Are you also using other facilities like, for example, the light sources. In some way. Okay, so, and. 317 00:42:55.040 --> 00:43:09.635 Jeff Nelson: So yeah, zooming could say some more. But, Valerie, when the original idea came and kind of what should be on there, we have input from, of course, argon, you know, light source. Berkeley neutrons always, you know. 318 00:43:10.230 --> 00:43:19.029 Jeff Nelson: Brookhaven tried to get their input on how they would integrate those capabilities into this one. Is that fair to me? 319 00:43:19.030 --> 00:43:47.750 TzuMing Lu: Yeah, I think that's totally fair. So we we do want to include as many characterization needs. On this platform. So the electrical is the the one that will go after. First, st because that's what we know how to do, and that's probably the simplest as well. But we definitely will consider. And then, yeah, we have had conversations with the light source at Berkeley. And then also the microscopy. 320 00:43:47.750 --> 00:43:48.370 TzuMing Lu: Okay 321 00:43:48.370 --> 00:43:58.380 TzuMing Lu: at Oak Ridge. So yeah, we definitely are, including all the ideas they want to have on this platform, for example, I think Oak Ridge wants to have 322 00:43:58.490 --> 00:43:59.820 TzuMing Lu: active 323 00:44:00.220 --> 00:44:20.229 TzuMing Lu: platform for their transmission microscopy experiments. I think that's definitely a great direction, so that you can probe materials with those signal lights while being examined within. Ta, so yeah, those things are are considerations that we will incorporate 324 00:44:20.360 --> 00:44:24.150 TzuMing Lu: in the design phase, and then we'll try to implement that in year 2. 325 00:44:24.800 --> 00:44:25.810 Valerie Taylor: Okay. 326 00:44:25.810 --> 00:44:28.069 Jeff Nelson: X-rays at Aps, or something right? 327 00:44:28.230 --> 00:44:34.007 Valerie Taylor: Right? Okay? So cause that's what I thought about when Gregor mentioned about 328 00:44:34.580 --> 00:44:48.999 Valerie Taylor: different user facilities. And then would this data, the characterization be archived and available in some database or and yes, so that question, too. 329 00:44:49.660 --> 00:44:56.370 TzuMing Lu: Oh, that's a great question. Yeah, we probably need to look into that. But yeah, I haven't put much thought into that one. 330 00:44:56.700 --> 00:45:18.490 Valerie Taylor: Okay? Cause. Yeah, that that would be good for sharing. If there's some way to archive, because we we're looking at it from a Co design standpoint. And so having the characterization available would be really good. Because I see you mean on here. So okay. 331 00:45:18.490 --> 00:45:24.590 Jeff Nelson: So is that dollar. Is that something that that you guys could interact with us on with? 332 00:45:25.150 --> 00:45:30.919 Jeff Nelson: We probably could do it, but probably do it clumsy and a lot slower than than I'm sure you guys are set up for. 333 00:45:31.550 --> 00:45:38.550 Valerie Taylor: Oh, in terms of I was, gonna say, we could utilize. And we your characterization that's available. 334 00:45:38.550 --> 00:45:39.830 Jeff Nelson: Oh, sure! Sure! 335 00:45:39.830 --> 00:45:53.830 Valerie Taylor: Yeah, but we would, you know. So in terms of having a database, we're happy to collaborate. But it's not where we have a database, either. So I was wondering. Given that was a a major component. If you were having that that database. 336 00:45:53.830 --> 00:46:01.859 Jeff Nelson: I think the best way would be to have it somehow available so that the other teams have it. If they're gonna need co-design 337 00:46:02.390 --> 00:46:05.160 Jeff Nelson: data of materials and devices and things. 338 00:46:05.490 --> 00:46:06.420 Valerie Taylor: Right? 339 00:46:07.030 --> 00:46:07.760 Valerie Taylor: Yes. 340 00:46:08.190 --> 00:46:08.680 Jeff Nelson: Gotcha. 341 00:46:08.680 --> 00:46:09.350 Valerie Taylor: Goodness. 342 00:46:11.510 --> 00:46:13.229 Jeff Nelson: Other questions. 343 00:46:14.091 --> 00:46:16.100 Archana Raja: This is Archana Raja from. 344 00:46:16.100 --> 00:46:18.850 Jeff Nelson: Yeah, yeah. I was hoping you'd ask some questions. 345 00:46:18.850 --> 00:46:24.212 Archana Raja: Yeah, yeah, cause tab I was pinging tab, tab, are you there? 346 00:46:25.430 --> 00:46:29.740 Archana Raja: Okay, he seems to be. But but yeah, and I are growing. 347 00:46:30.410 --> 00:46:40.069 Archana Raja: no, we're working on a number of 2D materials that are a bit different from what g 1 might be making. So, Ted Tab, are you? I see you on mute yourself. 348 00:46:40.070 --> 00:46:41.430 Tevye R. Kuykendall: I'm here, I'm here. Can you hear me. 349 00:46:41.430 --> 00:46:47.970 Archana Raja: Sorry. Yeah, I was going to say, I don't want to speak for you. But maybe if we go back a couple of slides. 350 00:46:49.470 --> 00:46:53.950 Archana Raja: yeah. Here. Yeah. No. So yeah, yeah. The passive, compact substrate. 351 00:46:55.600 --> 00:46:58.579 Archana Raja: I mean, I was just curious what the 352 00:46:58.710 --> 00:47:03.899 Archana Raja: you know limitations on the deposition. Or if, say, Ted were to grow something on it like 353 00:47:04.553 --> 00:47:08.006 Archana Raja: what's the thermal budget of these substrates right now? 354 00:47:08.390 --> 00:47:21.179 TzuMing Lu: Yeah, so that's that's 1 of the biggest concerns and then you probably know, Ji Huang. So we actually have a conversation about growing 2D. Materials. So I think, for from what he told me. 355 00:47:21.180 --> 00:47:39.420 TzuMing Lu: some of the materials can be grown at temperatures below 500. So for those we can probably go with silicon substrates, which we know how to process fairly well, so we can easily do all these backside contacts and then pass away the front side with 356 00:47:39.530 --> 00:47:46.110 TzuMing Lu: dielectric layers, so that it doesn't affect the synthesis 357 00:47:46.320 --> 00:48:14.400 TzuMing Lu: for materials or systems that need to go to higher temperatures. One thing we are considering is to produce sapphire based platform so that it can survive at higher temperatures. That also means all the metals and dielectric will have to survive at those temperatures as well, so that constrains what materials we can use. But I think we have enough options to to do that. 358 00:48:15.590 --> 00:48:21.930 Archana Raja: So what does the sapphire based substrate do? Exactly, I mean, how does that look compared to the. 359 00:48:22.330 --> 00:48:49.699 TzuMing Lu: It's still just a passive substrate. It's just that. It's harder to to machine to silicon. But if it's silicon, we know how to do all kinds of processing, and then drill holes from the backside to the front side so that we can make contact very easily, so that you don't need to do anything after we can just press that sample onto a onto the socket, if you will. 360 00:48:50.150 --> 00:49:03.179 TzuMing Lu: then and then we'll start doing measurements. But if it's sapphire. Then we need to figure out how we are going to create that to go through Safire via. So there's a bit more challenging in-in 361 00:49:03.390 --> 00:49:04.380 TzuMing Lu: processing. 362 00:49:04.780 --> 00:49:14.509 Archana Raja: Got it. Maybe Ted and I will discuss a bit more and get back to you. I mean there, there are materials that 363 00:49:14.970 --> 00:49:29.529 Archana Raja: would be perhaps not super ideal at these lower temperatures. But maybe that's also important data to collect in the spirit of Valerie discussing, you know, preparing databases of. 364 00:49:30.237 --> 00:49:42.362 Archana Raja: So maybe with Ricardo, we're try we're working on these very thin or very small feature sizes which could potentially fit that budget. But yeah, I don't know, Ricardo, did you have? 365 00:49:43.890 --> 00:49:45.919 Jeff Nelson: I saw Ricardo was on, hey, Ricardo? 366 00:49:46.320 --> 00:49:55.617 Ricardo Ruiz (LBNL): Hello, yeah. Sorry. No. Joined a bit late because I was in a in another meeting. So I think. 367 00:49:56.430 --> 00:50:05.430 Ricardo Ruiz (LBNL): I I don't have any anything else to add, but I think it. It is good to see the the potential synergies here. Right? So. 368 00:50:05.910 --> 00:50:12.830 Archana Raja: Yeah. So I maybe if it's like, if it's I mean. 369 00:50:13.170 --> 00:50:32.179 Archana Raja: we can discuss in more detail, maybe directly with you on what's the easiest way to test this out? And what kind of materials might be interesting for this? Because doing the full device, Fab is always, you know, a big lift for us as. 370 00:50:32.180 --> 00:50:36.600 Jeff Nelson: Zooming's the zoomings magic in the in the Fab. So he's the guy. 371 00:50:36.940 --> 00:50:42.880 Ricardo Ruiz (LBNL): That's right. It could. It could be a a good platform, right for for various projects. 372 00:50:45.820 --> 00:50:57.579 Jeff Nelson: Okay, any other questions on the characterization for now. But I think, zooming, you know, we can send this out and has contacts and mine's there, and Ricardo is there, too. He knows how to 373 00:50:57.760 --> 00:51:00.420 Jeff Nelson: get a hold of us and go ahead. 374 00:51:00.420 --> 00:51:07.390 Archana Raja: One last comment that I had was perhaps among the characterization things that we could do. 375 00:51:07.530 --> 00:51:12.900 Archana Raja: especially that I have more experience with the 2D material side. But 376 00:51:13.480 --> 00:51:25.409 Archana Raja: there are. There's some sort of information we can get from simple optical reflectance or absorption that could already tell you about disorder, and then try to correlate it with the electrical measurements, because 377 00:51:25.460 --> 00:51:51.430 Archana Raja: try and see if if we do a lot of I know if g. 1 grows a lot, and we could do our more details spectroscopy on large wafers, where, for instance, if you can measure the absorption of the excited states depending on the quality of the film that actually tells you something about dielectric disorder. I have a paper in the past about this, but we've always correlated that with, for example, exciton transport, but not really 378 00:51:51.490 --> 00:51:59.109 Archana Raja: electrical transport. So this might be an interesting opportunity here, if we're, you know, and and statistics always helps in this. 379 00:51:59.110 --> 00:52:03.830 Jeff Nelson: Yeah, I know you had ideas about sort of. I know. We talked at one time about. 380 00:52:03.830 --> 00:52:04.700 Archana Raja: Yeah, yeah. 381 00:52:04.700 --> 00:52:10.789 Jeff Nelson: Low defect concentrations. That's a big. That's a big issue, too, for these 2D materials in terms of 382 00:52:10.950 --> 00:52:18.669 Jeff Nelson: understanding whether you know for point defects or line defects if they're going to matter or not. Right for the. 383 00:52:18.670 --> 00:52:19.469 Archana Raja: Yeah, absolutely. 384 00:52:19.470 --> 00:52:20.650 Jeff Nelson: Capturing folks. 385 00:52:22.217 --> 00:52:46.200 Archana Raja: And so our postdoc, Lacey Chen, setting up a new optical characterization setup. And I think it would be really cool to just, you know, chat with Zooming and and Tev and Ricardo and her to see if we can make it in a way that these substrates can actually do really well, for you know, efficient optical characterization. Just leave it overnight or something like that. Yeah. 386 00:52:46.710 --> 00:52:47.550 Archana Raja: okay. 387 00:52:47.550 --> 00:52:58.689 Tevye R. Kuykendall: So I had another thought. Here I also arrived a little bit late, so I think my brain was still catching up on on exactly what's being proposed here. 388 00:52:58.760 --> 00:53:22.090 Tevye R. Kuykendall: I did. I do have a thought here. And so again, I'm not sure if I'm completely understanding the the graphic here. But one of the issues we're having with the project we're working on, which we're calling the filaments project is that we'd like to put a number of devices on top of our substrate and make individual contacts to those. 389 00:53:23.425 --> 00:53:32.580 Tevye R. Kuykendall: And so we're kind of limited right now to the number of contacts we can wire bond directly. Trying to make like each wire bond, each device individually. 390 00:53:32.700 --> 00:53:37.889 Tevye R. Kuykendall: Am I seeing something in the way here that you could maybe potentially 391 00:53:38.630 --> 00:53:53.079 Tevye R. Kuykendall: do something with that like, simplify that, or make it so that we could make more contacts, or have some sort of logic that on this underside substrate, that you're spring mounting to such that you control, which 392 00:53:53.340 --> 00:53:56.080 Tevye R. Kuykendall: yes, you know which contacts are being made. 393 00:53:57.020 --> 00:54:00.760 TzuMing Lu: Yeah, I think the idea is that we will pre make 394 00:54:00.930 --> 00:54:07.080 TzuMing Lu: all the required supporting structures like electrical wiring. 395 00:54:07.200 --> 00:54:11.559 TzuMing Lu: And then for optical. We talk about gradings, and with with other groups. 396 00:54:11.825 --> 00:54:12.090 Grzegorz Deptuch: Oh! 397 00:54:12.280 --> 00:54:42.050 TzuMing Lu: Already on the platform before any material synthesis. So once the platform is done, it should be able to support many different kinds of measurements, including electrical. And then, if there is a need for having many, many electrical leads, I think that's something that silicon can can do very easily. So yeah, we just need to incorporate your desired layout and structures into the fabrication before the growth. 398 00:54:42.240 --> 00:54:46.561 TzuMing Lu: And once that chip is there, then once they just grow the film on top 399 00:54:47.230 --> 00:54:55.239 TzuMing Lu: it should already be there and then once we can route that to the signal to the circuit board, and it can do whatever we want. 400 00:54:55.240 --> 00:55:16.980 Tevye R. Kuykendall: Yeah. So so the idea in our our case is, we're doing all you know, back end compatible processes. Depositing either. Probably we're starting with just tungsten metal. Doing some lithographic steps on it to make, you know. Micro slash Nano wires out of it, and then and then we wanna, you know. 401 00:55:16.980 --> 00:55:41.219 Tevye R. Kuykendall: make contacts to each of these devices to supply a current through it. And we're basically what we're doing is very small micro heaters, which would then be chemically converted. Right? And so currently, what we're doing is we're making a bunch of these devices with large pads. And then, you know, maybe one common wire on one side and then, you know, individual contacts on the other. But we're having to wire bond to each of these individual devices 402 00:55:41.740 --> 00:55:52.069 Tevye R. Kuykendall: right? And so if there's some way we could. I don't know if multiplexing is the right word, or like somehow do 403 00:55:52.070 --> 00:56:14.860 Tevye R. Kuykendall: some sort of control on Chip or on this chip, that you're mounting it to such that we could make contact to a hundred wires as opposed to, you know, using 10 wire bonds as opposed to just being able to. Basically, you know, one to 1, 1010 wire bonds equals 1010 or 9 10 wire bonds you can get, not in our current. 404 00:56:14.860 --> 00:56:18.980 Jeff Nelson: Like design. You can get 9 devices out of right. 405 00:56:19.660 --> 00:56:41.349 TzuMing Lu: Yeah. So I think there are 2 2 ways of doing that. One is through the circuit board, which we can then easily acquire commercial multiplexers for routing the signals another way is to build that multiplexing capability into the silicon itself. That's a more ambitious route. So but 406 00:56:41.790 --> 00:56:46.060 TzuMing Lu: the Circuit Board route it should be easily achievable. 407 00:56:46.430 --> 00:57:11.699 Tevye R. Kuykendall: Yeah, yeah, I I wouldn't want to try and do that design on each of our test ships. Right? We'll call them right that we're gonna do these on. But yeah. And so I I'm liking this. What I'm seeing in terms of like a spring loaded mount where we could mount these down we could a much, you know, much simpler sort of lithographic process, and then we mount these down to something that has the some sort of signal processing in it. 408 00:57:12.810 --> 00:57:20.299 Jeff Nelson: Yeah, we probably need to take for good reason. Take it offline because I think we need to get far in here for a few minutes. 409 00:57:20.300 --> 00:57:21.290 Tevye R. Kuykendall: Of course. Sorry. Yeah. 410 00:57:21.290 --> 00:57:25.359 Jeff Nelson: No, no, it's great, great conversation. This is what we're really wanting to do. Right? 411 00:57:25.970 --> 00:57:27.720 Jeff Nelson: Okay, are you still with us? 412 00:57:27.720 --> 00:57:34.549 Jeff Nelson: Yes, yes, yes, I'm gonna be very, very quick, and I try not to take. 413 00:57:34.550 --> 00:57:35.839 Jeff Nelson: or I can bring it up. Or what do you. 414 00:57:35.840 --> 00:57:39.140 Farah Fahim: No, it's okay. I can share it. I have it up here. 415 00:57:39.430 --> 00:57:49.220 Farah Fahim: Okay, so I just have a very few slides. And actually, there are a couple of things. One is Nsr. Chip 416 00:57:49.740 --> 00:58:17.160 Farah Fahim: has this thrust right where we are talking about Asics and AI and Co-design. But it's also very intimately connected with the other Msrc. The chime, which is the project that I lead. So you'll see a little bit about that project as well, and see the connection between Nsr chip and chime vias. Okay, so what we are doing in thrust 3 A is 417 00:58:17.160 --> 00:58:41.490 Farah Fahim: creating chips which are Cmos compatible for growth. So this discussion just before my presentation was very, very relevant, because this might actually work out well for others as well. So what we are basically doing as a part of my Msrc. We are developing 418 00:58:41.610 --> 00:58:44.520 Farah Fahim: something like 18 chiplets. 419 00:58:44.560 --> 00:59:12.189 Farah Fahim: and for 3 different applications. Hep, X-ray photon science as well as for Hpcs. The high performance computing. So this is being done through 3 organizations, which is Fermilab, Oak Ridge and Berkeley, and of course there are many other universities that are involved as well. So Nsr chip actually leverages 2 of the programs 420 00:59:12.400 --> 00:59:14.430 Farah Fahim: that Fermilab is involved in. 421 00:59:14.530 --> 00:59:28.249 Farah Fahim: So one is the Chime Msrc center, and the other one is the natcast funded tbip, the test vehicle innovation, pipeline, which is both formula as well as slack. 422 00:59:28.250 --> 00:59:51.909 Farah Fahim: So through these 2 programs, what we are planning to do for Nsr chip is create 2 sets of wafers or 2 types of wafers for further Cmos compatible growth opportunities. One is an Soi wafer, which is through the Tvip program, and the other one is the Cmos bulk. 423 00:59:51.910 --> 01:00:04.869 Farah Fahim: a wafer. So with both these wafers. One of the thing that we are planning to do is back end of line integration of sensing, type of devices, and 424 01:00:04.870 --> 01:00:25.430 Farah Fahim: whatever material, whichever is Cmos compatible. And what we intend to do is create process markers in both these wafers which will allow you to understand the basic health of the underlying transistors as well as passive elements based on your fabrication process. So that's 1 425 01:00:25.430 --> 01:00:44.130 Farah Fahim: that's definitely something that we are aiming to do. Then the second thing we're also aiming to do is this underlying circuitry which will hopefully show us some co-design, and the idea is that these wafers will become available for growth 426 01:00:44.190 --> 01:01:09.189 Farah Fahim: by year. 3 of the center, the 1st 2 years. The center is going to be focused on creating devices and everything. It's just not on Cmos wafers prefabricated Cmos wafers. Then in year 4, once all the fabrication process is completed. It's actually between both year 3 as well as year. 427 01:01:09.190 --> 01:01:32.929 Farah Fahim: for the Vias project in Msrc. The chime Msrc. Is also creating open source hardware and software for chip testing. And this is called Spacegle. And the way we actually go about testing our 18 chiplets is through creating this unified interface and all plugins. And 428 01:01:32.930 --> 01:01:39.549 Farah Fahim: you know, test boards which are uniform and have 429 01:01:39.740 --> 01:02:03.789 Farah Fahim: very similar control and readout electronics on almost all of these chips. So, for example, the programming interface that we have decided is a Jtag interface, and all these chips will use the same Jtag type of interface. So once we develop that interface both for the design as well as for testing, we will end up reusing it for all the different 430 01:02:03.790 --> 01:02:28.750 Farah Fahim: different chiplets with the Soi. There are 2 options actually sorry with the bulk Cmos process. There are 2 options. One is, we should be able to integrate the sensors as back end of line on top of the wafer as end of the topmost metal layer. But there's also the option of integrating 431 01:02:28.750 --> 01:02:52.640 Farah Fahim: the sensor on the other side on the backside after through silicon via. That's because the Msrc that I'm working on is really focused on doing 3D. Integration. So once there are 2 chips that are face to face connected to each other. The only way to access them is through the backside, and that's why. 432 01:02:52.640 --> 01:03:20.490 Farah Fahim: in some cases you can deposit the sensor on the top, and in most of the other cases you have to deposit the sensor at the bottom. So here is a brief overview of the Chimes Vias project via stands for vertically integrated artificial intelligence for sensing and Hpcs. And the idea is to try and build a multi-layer heterogeneous stack. 433 01:03:20.490 --> 01:03:43.710 Farah Fahim: such that there is a sensor layer, a signal processing layer, a computation layer and a power delivery and signal transmission layer. So that's the goal of Vs, it's leveraging a lot of previous work that has been already done and demonstrated in several of these areas by Fermilab. 434 01:03:44.080 --> 01:04:08.490 Farah Fahim: So like I mentioned, co-design is a big theme and most of the Edge AI algorithms that we are developing is actually scaling algorithms that we have already tried out. And like I mentioned, we have 3 applications in mind. The Hep, the X-ray photon science and the Hpcs. So, for example, for the Hpcs. 435 01:04:08.700 --> 01:04:31.490 Farah Fahim: the AI algorithm and the chiplets that we are developing is something that has already been investigated by Berkeley, and we are, you know, basically implementing it on Chip and demonstrating beyond their 1st proof of principle. Demo, which was just the Rtl. And hadn't been implemented on Chip. 436 01:04:31.490 --> 01:04:56.240 Farah Fahim: So that's like a brief outline of what we are trying to do. And like I mentioned for Viaz the deliverables include several 2 layer stack, 3 layer stack, and 4 layer stack, and you can see you can. Nsr chip will be able to demonstrate our 437 01:04:56.240 --> 01:05:09.920 Farah Fahim: grow. These sensors, either on the, you know, one layer stack or on the 2 layer stack to make the 3rd layer and the 4 layer stacks where you'd have the signal processing, the data processing and the photonics 438 01:05:09.920 --> 01:05:12.630 Farah Fahim: as well included. Okay, that's it. 439 01:05:14.850 --> 01:05:17.140 Jeff Nelson: Thanks. Farah. Any any quick questions? 440 01:05:19.450 --> 01:05:20.180 Jeff Nelson: Nothing. 441 01:05:22.290 --> 01:05:28.337 Jeff Nelson: Yeah. I think probably good. Angelo wasn't able to make it, and some of the other folks. But that's probably where the connection is. 442 01:05:28.590 --> 01:05:28.910 Farah Fahim: Yep. 443 01:05:31.240 --> 01:05:43.000 Jeff Nelson: Well, I think we're about, and any final questions. And I can send out these slides so that everybody has some contact information. But it's also being recorded. So I think that that makes it easy. 444 01:05:44.510 --> 01:05:47.620 Jeff Nelson: Alright, thanks everybody for coming. Appreciate it. See, you guys. 445 01:05:47.620 --> 01:05:48.886 Farah Fahim: You, bye.